Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-08-2015, 06:18 PM   #1526
.isolated
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 21,268
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

He didn't talk about that.
.isolated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2015, 07:33 PM   #1527
Poker Innovations
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: UK/USA
Posts: 22
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkItThrough View Post
Forget regulators. They are not smart people, and definitely not problem solvers. It's just another layer of people who will need to be paid off aka rake increase.

However, if people knew which type of people work in the "game integrity" or "security" department, you will not be surprised by anything.

The simple fact is that the bots + their creators are really smart people who have a huge financial incentive to do what they do with 0 downside (get caught, no jail time).

The people i had the "pleasure" to interact with made the impression of people whose intelligence is far below average and quite naive. It's hard to believe that these type of people will outsmart the bot-makers.

You will need some serious brains (former hackers, financial fraudsters etc... ) aka nasty people to create a system where botting is not morally reprehensible , but financially impossible.

I'm longterm positive that stars/online poker will solve the problem, while understanding that they might need to learn it the hard way first

We at Poker innovations are a little unsure of the point you wish to make because the final paragraph seems to contradict the previous ones.
However we sympathise with you and other players in your obvious frustration over the bot problem.

Your statement that regulators are not problem solvers is correct but nor is it their job to be so. Implying that regulators and security departments are not smart people is a somewhat unfair because you correctly state "that the bots +their creators are really smart people" . Labelling an office worker as being far below average intelligence when they may not have been given the correct tools to do the job is also unfair.

Your statement that some serious brains are required to solve this problem is spot on although not perhaps by the types of people you suggest.
You are also correct in stating that the bots and their creators have a huge financial incentive to do what they do.

To shed some further light on the situation it is clear that the poker sites are aware of how damaging bots are, and the long term threat bots present to online poker. It is our understanding from the industry that a number of other companies have also developed bot detection systems. This augers well for all online poker players.
Poker Innovations is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2015, 07:57 PM   #1528
beset
Pooh-Bah
 
beset's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: SEA/LA/MEXICO
Posts: 4,107
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by NerdSuperfly View Post
i'm not sure about your comment about "never been a case" ... once heard a story about an early site which used pseudo numbers and some players found out and made big money. tbh, not sure if it's true and the guy talking about this (youtube video of persi diaconis talking about randomness) didn't mention the sites name.

anyway ... i replied to the potbet, because he/she assumed rng-testing would be the solution, which i (as you) strongly disagree. good regulation should focus on real threats
I believe you are referring to the Paradise Poker issues way back when.
beset is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2015, 04:48 AM   #1529
Richas
veteran
 
Richas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the learning curve
Posts: 3,440
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker Innovations View Post
Your statement that regulators are not problem solvers is correct but nor is it their job to be so. Implying that regulators and security departments are not smart people is a somewhat unfair because you correctly state "that the bots +their creators are really smart people" . Labelling an office worker as being far below average intelligence when they may not have been given the correct tools to do the job is also unfair.
It is not regulators' role to solve the problem. What uniquely they can do though is provide te legal framework and prosecutions that add up to some form of deterrence. They can also help in sharing best practice within the industry, monitoring industry progress and chasing laggards to do more. They are also in the position of being able to share information and intelligence not just with the police but betwen operators.

For example the name, bank, address details of cheats can effectively be shared - the regulator has the right to this information, they can also ask other operators if the same cheats have accounts with them and ask that if so they are investigated. An individual operator cannot share such details.

They can also seek to seize money after it has left the sites by using money laundering and proceeds of crime powers that they have already. No operator can do this.

They could make the supply of bot software a prosecutable offence just by changing their interpretaion of "gambling software" to better match that in the law.

As for their "intelligence". Having met some and spent longer corresponding with them I am yet to find one that was below par in that area, indeed they show themselves to be engaged, motivated, sharp, intelligent. Quick to grasp issues. The problem is not their intelligence, it is partly a lack of resource and partly that they operate within tight rules of impartiality and with further restrictions on action without full consultation. They are bound in red tape not lack of wit.

They have a very difficult job. They are attacked by players, operators even MPs as a waste of money. Denigrated openly and yet they don't get to argue back, they just take it, devoid of allies and supporters everyone gets a free shot.

They are not dim, indeed one of their many problems is that the gambling industry regularly poaches their people precisely because they are bright capable people who when offered a freer rein and a bit more cash jump ship.

Having said that their intelligence married with a lack of significant action is hugely frustrating, not just to me but in many cases to them too.
Richas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 03:37 AM   #1530
GotBluffing
centurion
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 138
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Russian PTR stopped tracking zoom hands on Stars, now spotting bots in zoom pools is next to impossible?
GotBluffing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 04:48 AM   #1531
insyder19
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
insyder19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,163
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by GotBluffing View Post
Russian PTR stopped tracking zoom hands on Stars, now spotting bots in zoom pools is next to impossible?
Does anyone know who developed RTP? Perhaps they are involved or had an assignment to built bots too?
insyder19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2015, 02:41 PM   #1532
Herrigel
adept
 
Herrigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hattrick in a hurricane
Posts: 1,137
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by legendus88 View Post
There's a new russian on PLO100 and his playing style is like some combination of thoughtsaway and totalsuccess. His nickname is simpleme203, he is very aggressive, I've never seen him before and he is very good and has insane winrate. Can you please investigate him? I can provide with HH's. Who would've thought that first timer at plo100 can already be one of the biggest winners at the game? My bet is that he is a first reincarnation of previously banned bots.
Did Schwein look over his stats?
Did you guys report him?

He is still playing...
Herrigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2015, 06:00 PM   #1533
Plw
journeyman
 
Plw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 390
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by insyder19 View Post
Does anyone know who developed RTP? Perhaps they are involved or had an assignment to built bots too?
I heard it was stars which stopped this data to be open to third party...
Plw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2015, 04:11 PM   #1534
TopPair2Pair
veteran
 
TopPair2Pair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 3,341
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plw View Post
I heard it was stars which stopped this data to be open to third party...
Sounds plausible.

Less exposure for them if they send rptr a cease and desist...like they did w ptr. identifying bots then becomes next to impossible for players which makes a headache for stars go away
TopPair2Pair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2015, 02:21 PM   #1535
RussellinToronto
veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,007
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by NerdSuperfly View Post
i'm not sure about your comment about "never been a case" ... once heard a story about an early site which used pseudo numbers and some players found out and made big money. tbh, not sure if it's true and the guy talking about this (youtube video of persi diaconis talking about randomness) didn't mention the sites name.
Planet Poker was the very first of the online sites -- and the first to demonstrate the potential problems. See: http://pokersafety.blogspot.ca/2005/...-not-hoax.html
Quote:
In 1999, online poker rooms for real money were just beginning to emerge. One of these early poker sites was Planet Poker, which used software from ASF Software, Inc. In order to help instill trust in game integrity, they made the software code of their shuffling algorithm public.

This in itself is not bad – knowing the source code of a shuffling algorithm does not allow a person to know the outcome of running it, because the shuffle will be based on a input which should be truly random and also unpredictable.

The problem was that Planet Poker’s algorithm, random number generator, and random data source were significantly flawed.

The first problem was that the shuffling algorithm actually couldn’t produce every possible deck variation because of numerical limitations combined with a programming flaw.

In this situation, the RNG generated a 32-bit number, which only supports numbers up to approx 4 billion. As you read in the prior article, there are many more than 4 billion possible deck orderings.

Making matters worse was that the source for random data was based on the number of milliseconds past midnight. But there are only approximately 87 million milliseconds in a day. This means there were only 87 million orderings of cards that could be used.

This limitation was significant because this particular shuffling algorithm started each run of the shuffling algorithm with the same deck order. Imagine if you were at a live cardroom with a dealer who had a lazy shuffle, only riffle-shuffling a couple times. Since the cards are mucked in a different order each hand, the effects of that dealer’s lazy shuffle may not be very evident. But what if that dealer started with a new deck of cards out of the box every time? Wouldn’t you at least eventually notice some clumping of suits and card values?

As explained in the prior article, there are approximately 130,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000 possible deck orderings for a 52-card deck. Eighty-seven million is significantly less.

This combination of flaws is already problematic enough for concern, and knowing this would cause many players to leave a poker site. But it was worse than that.

The second problem was that the RNG seed was predictable with some effort. A user knowing the RNG seed and the programming function operating on that seed and the shuffling algorithm would be able to crack the shuffle.

The RNG seed was based on the number of milliseconds from midnight. The team that cracked the poker site was able to synchronize their clocks with the poker site’s clock and was able to reduce the number of possible shuffles at any one time to a set of 200,000 possibilities.

Through these dissections of the algorithm and RNG flaws, we’ve seen the number of deck orderings slip from 52! (the huge number above) to 4 billion, to 87 million, and now to 200,000.

Still, that’s a lot of possible deck orderings, and without number-crunching power and more data, that’s not enough to take dramatic advantage of the site. But by combining how Hold 'Em poker is played along with the power of computers this was a fairly easy task for the cracking team.

The team plugged in the position of the dealer button and first five known cards in a Hold ‘Em game. These cards were their two hole cards and the three community cards on the flop. Based on that data, their computer was able to search the potential 200,000 deck orderings for the one that was being used during that hand.

Net result: After the flop, the cracking team knew the hole cards of every single player and knew the turn and river in advance.

How much money did these crackers make? Well, the good news is that the cracking team was part of a group effort to find security holes and alert companies so that they could fix them. They alerted ASF Software, makers of the software used by Planet Poker and they corrected the flaw quickly.
RussellinToronto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2015, 06:30 AM   #1536
Poker Innovations
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: UK/USA
Posts: 22
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandan160808 View Post
Schwein in my opinion should be paid some kind of fee for helping out other players but by also saving Pokerstars anymore embarrassment. It took Schwein and his statistical results to literally get at least 2/3rds of these bots removed. You have saved the integrity dept in the long run a lot of money and undetected without your work the compensation would be huge and I have no doubt a hell of a lot more bots or colluders starting up. This is not just a stars thing as its across most online networks. I think any account that can play 100,000's of hands per year with a steady incline needs looking at from now on. It's scary that they crush PLO and this is by far the game with the most variance of any game. Limit Holdem has been cracked and no limit Holdem not far off but PLO? I still think real time hole card collusion sharing is a major part of this. I've gone through a load of algorithms thinking how can this happen and I'm not even close to thinking we have such an intelligent BOT. My guess is data key logger or compromised accounts? Idk we have to wait and see what the findings are.

Thank you Schwein, Richas and Oink et al.

We at Poker Innovations concur with your conclusion that real time hole card sharing is highly likely in order to consistently crush the PLO games. You are almost certainly correct in believing that PLO bots are still a long way short of having the capability to destroy the game without human assistance. Bot manufacturers are undoubtedly working to solve this problem. The challenge to the poker industry is to prevent bots from operating causing their future development to be redundant.

Technology now exists to identify bots and any associated collusion.
Poker Innovations is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 12:28 PM   #1537
scrubbyz
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 19
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

when is stars going to compensate for the millions taken?
scrubbyz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 06:48 PM   #1538
yrmom
Pooh-Bah
 
yrmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: CardRunners & NutBlocker
Posts: 3,921
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker Innovations View Post
We at Poker Innovations concur with your conclusion that real time hole card sharing is highly likely in order to consistently crush the PLO games. You are almost certainly correct in believing that PLO bots are still a long way short of having the capability to destroy the game without human assistance. Bot manufacturers are undoubtedly working to solve this problem. The challenge to the poker industry is to prevent bots from operating causing their future development to be redundant.

Technology now exists to identify bots and any associated collusion.
How can we personally help identify bots? Besides not participating in the chatbox, etc.
yrmom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 08:50 PM   #1539
danfiu
adept
 
danfiu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Hungary
Posts: 748
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

U guys think there are bots on 500z?I think yes.
danfiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 03:37 AM   #1540
NerdSuperfly
veteran
 
NerdSuperfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: just shillin', yo
Posts: 2,168
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussellinToronto View Post
Planet Poker was the very first of the online sites -- and the first to demonstrate the potential problems. See: http://pokersafety.blogspot.ca/2005/...-not-hoax.html
thx!
NerdSuperfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 06:45 AM   #1541
Poker Innovations
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: UK/USA
Posts: 22
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by yrmom View Post
How can we personally help identify bots? Besides not participating in the chatbox, etc.
A very pertinent question that concerns all regular online players. There is no recognisable single trait (to the best of our knowledge) that will enable a player to identify an online opponent as being a bot. This may sound discouraging but consider this fact. Mainstream bot manufacturer's have produced hundreds of different bot types (designed for use in a specific game) which in turn can be adjusted (by anyone with poker/computer expertise) to produce literally thousands of variations of the original bot. It should be apparent that all bot identification by the players would be an impossible task and for a site to rely on this would be to abrogate their responsibilities.

We do not wish to discourage yourself or other players from expressing reasonable concerns about suspicious activity. Indeed, well reasoned observations and comments would enable the appropriate bot/cheat detection tests to be applied in a timely manner.
Poker Innovations is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 11:23 AM   #1542
MATT111
Pooh-Bah
 
MATT111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Free Vuvuzela!
Posts: 5,996
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker Innovations View Post
It should be apparent that all bot identification by the players would be an impossible task and for a site to rely on this would be to abrogate their responsibilities.
If this is true it means that eiher

a) Stars' game security is extremely bad.
b) They knew that bots were playing, yet chose to do nothing.
MATT111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 05:34 PM   #1543
kingc11
journeyman
 
kingc11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: grinding4life
Posts: 334
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Hey so are they into Zoom yet as far as we know? I have a couple very new accounts similar playing style as the one mentioned on last page.
kingc11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 05:43 PM   #1544
Poker Innovations
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: UK/USA
Posts: 22
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by MATT111 View Post
If this is true it means that eiher

a) Stars' game security is extremely bad.
b) They knew that bots were playing, yet chose to do nothing.
We apologise for any lack of clarity in our previous post. We are simply saying that it would be an impossible task for the players to spot and identify bots in all of their forms and guises. It is doubtful that any site these days would consciously allow a proliferation of bots to operate for the simple reason it would destroy their business, as would lax security.
Poker Innovations is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2015, 12:39 PM   #1545
Grethe
old hand
 
Grethe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Waiting for the heater
Posts: 1,300
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingc11 View Post
Hey so are they into Zoom yet as far as we know? I have a couple very new accounts similar playing style as the one mentioned on last page.
Report to stars asap. rPTR does not track zoom anymore.
Grethe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2015, 12:37 AM   #1546
953757584922009
banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 132
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

When you send a mail to the support to report a player you suspect could be a bot and then ps investigate, does ps tell the suspected bot who reported him ?
It sounds silly but after I reported a player I had suspicions on, he started making the most insane plays vs me and being overall crazy aggro vs me... probably just being paranoid tho
953757584922009 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2015, 10:11 AM   #1547
Maver1ck
journeyman
 
Maver1ck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: assisted living
Posts: 214
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Now theres the botproblem, people wonder if there are bots at zoom, and all over a sudden theres a softwarechange or sth so that ptr&friends are unable to scan zoom anymore, so not enough hhs to prove a suspect... COINCIDENCE???
Prolly stars did think very well and deeply about bots and onlinepokerbusiness and found an easy solution - they just deciced easiest way to get rid of botproblem is if nobody is able to spot and prove bots anymore....
Maver1ck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2015, 04:08 PM   #1548
scrubbyz
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 19
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

even when you reply and spot they still don't do anything to compensate for all that was lost.
scrubbyz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2015, 06:25 PM   #1549
ChicagoJoey
Papi
 
ChicagoJoey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: I AM GTO
Posts: 15,420
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maver1ck View Post
Now theres the botproblem, people wonder if there are bots at zoom, and all over a sudden theres a softwarechange or sth so that ptr&friends are unable to scan zoom anymore, so not enough hhs to prove a suspect... COINCIDENCE???
Prolly stars did think very well and deeply about bots and onlinepokerbusiness and found an easy solution - they just deciced easiest way to get rid of botproblem is if nobody is able to spot and prove bots anymore....
Sure is a coincidence
ChicagoJoey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2015, 09:40 PM   #1550
HUstylez
RIP HUNL Champ
 
HUstylez's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 13,803
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

stars sucks dick

yet im still playing 500zoom. such is life
HUstylez is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive