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Old 07-01-2015, 02:51 AM   #1326
apo5tol
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Sorry for offtopic:

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Old 07-01-2015, 02:59 AM   #1327
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

I am truly sorry to say this, but I am 99.789% sure that pokerstars are in on it.
Two of my very good friends are working/ worked in the security departments of two major poker sites/networks. From my conversations with them I understand that making 20+ accounts with almost the same bot/ bot strategy is very foolish.
The fun part is they had a lot to say about this issue but not only from policing the sites.
My friends said that they were actually thinking how they can make and use such software to make $$$ on the site. They told me a story in partypoker were one of my friends had a confidential meeting with the heads of two other departments. This meeting was all about how to cheat (if possible) the players and the network with bots
I really feel sick right now. You can chose not to believe me as I have no proof, I am personally shocked at this point.
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Old 07-01-2015, 05:02 AM   #1328
Ilya N
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

as it looks to me, the tougher it gets to win at poker the more shady/scummy the industry becomes. those who are looking for justice forget that in a perfect society poker probably wouldn't exist. that would be real justice. my advice would be if you're looking for justice/fairness go away from this industry. it is never going to be fair. i mean you're playing for money behind the computer with nobody watching you. this idea alone is already not 100% fair.
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Old 07-01-2015, 08:22 AM   #1329
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Lee jones in teh 2+2 podcast was a pain to listen to...

"Well, we dont really need player reports bc we catch everybody" was essentially wat he was saying...
Teh level of arrogance displayed by this guy was ridiculous.

Some of those accounts are around for years and got reported months ago...

And Lee: if something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a ****ing duck in almoast all cases...
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Old 07-01-2015, 09:29 AM   #1330
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Maybe someone on their team came back from holiday and was like "oh look our bots got banned, lets undo this real quick and send them back to work".

On a more serious note i think there is definitely a possibility that someone on their security team is involved. Think about it, you have access to all hand histories with hole cards from every player.

I think I'm not the only one who still can't wrap his head around how those "bots" are winning at ~8bb/100 (incl. zoom), I had two of them labeled as extremely terrible and witnessed those 4b calls with ATT5ss etc as have many other players here too. I was very confused after first seeing their RPTR screens, still am .

Last edited by cbt; 07-01-2015 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 07-01-2015, 10:39 AM   #1331
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

really depressive that stars let bots play....

i dont think someone from pokerstars staff is involded w this, but im sure pokerstars thinks this bots are good for pokerstars. i wrote this days ago in this thread, will repit my thoughts:

bots are good for pokerstars? they pay rake like everyone else. they make tables runs. why this is bad for the site? what diference for pokerstars if theres a machine or a human making plays behind a screename ? not diference. more people paying rake, i only see this being good for pokerstars.

but changes a lot if this ruin their reputation and/or if lots human players stop playing there. then pokerstars will think its terrible to have bots... but if this don't happen, bots are welcome on pokersites .

thats why i think its better for everyone who is playing legit and like playing online poker, that this bots stuff goes for maximum media possible.

if stars reputation don't change anything, if nobody stop playing at their site, why they will ban some machine accounts that pay rake and make table runs ?
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:01 AM   #1332
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

^exactly, therefor I think we should organize, write down this issue so that also ppl not involved in online poker(journalists) understand this, make clear that the company which running the business knows about it, but don't cares for it since they profit huge from it as well(4.xm in rake) and basically steal from their own customers. Then mail this out to every radio station, TV-Channel, newspaper worldwide, would say we make a list who will take which country etc. it's time to fight back and do some damage to this shady company! So maybe a native with solid writing skills could go ahead and write a nice summary, link the evidence etc.?! (Would be willing to pay for this and think others would to if you think you(whoever writes it) deserve some payment to do so!)
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:28 AM   #1333
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by urubu222 View Post
really depressive that stars let bots play....

i dont think someone from pokerstars staff is involded w this, but im sure pokerstars thinks this bots are good for pokerstars. i wrote this days ago in this thread, will repit my thoughts:

bots are good for pokerstars? they pay rake like everyone else. they make tables runs. why this is bad for the site? what diference for pokerstars if theres a machine or a human making plays behind a screename ? not diference. more people paying rake, i only see this being good for pokerstars.

but changes a lot if this ruin their reputation and/or if lots human players stop playing there. then pokerstars will think its terrible to have bots... but if this don't happen, bots are welcome on pokersites .

thats why i think its better for everyone who is playing legit and like playing online poker, that this bots stuff goes for maximum media possible.

if stars reputation don't change anything, if nobody stop playing at their site, why they will ban some machine accounts that pay rake and make table runs ?
They are bad for Stars if they are scalable, winning, non-depositors.
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:55 AM   #1334
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by OstapBender View Post
I might be missing something from the thread but have there been efforts to contact some of the regulation commissions in the countries where Pokerstars is licensed, such as UKGC (in the UK)?
I think getting in contact with the regulator would be a reasonable first step. Id be willing to pay a share of a lawyer if needed.
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Old 07-01-2015, 12:26 PM   #1335
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

+1 for th regulators.
Stars is a piece of s. Nowdays.
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Old 07-01-2015, 12:30 PM   #1336
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Obvious step would be to get a pool of players with standing to hire a lawyer to sue stars and the lawyer gets a shot at commission on millions of dollars
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Old 07-01-2015, 01:20 PM   #1337
AmeXCetuRioN
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Just like many of you, I have been effected greatly from this botting incident. At this moment, we don't how long this has been happening for, but, I believe PokerStars are accountable for their non action and arrogance. It is incredible how much business we give them and they don't serve their best customers with priority or security.

I have been around poker since the beginning of time and we have always been battling to climb the mountain against these ruthless companies and cheaters (people who are lazy and don't want ever challenge themselves to whatever outcome).

I just can't stand the fact just watching and seeing this go through the cracks anymore and I believe all players who want to see some kind of future for this game needs to stand up now.

I plan to draft a letter/petition to PokerStars in-regards to the incident from cheating using bots or even the incident of what is going on with Brian Hasting. Anyone whose interested can PM or post "+1" for fairness and integrity. Once I collect enough players to sign this draft. I will send it to PokerStars and the poker community.

John this fight now, don't let them abuse you. Let's put this thread to a higher gear. I really hope you guys will take an initiative and fight for what may be the last stand.

+1
Fight on...




Quote:
Originally Posted by urubu222 View Post
really depressive that stars let bots play....

i dont think someone from pokerstars staff is involded w this, but im sure pokerstars thinks this bots are good for pokerstars. i wrote this days ago in this thread, will repit my thoughts:

bots are good for pokerstars? they pay rake like everyone else. they make tables runs. why this is bad for the site? what diference for pokerstars if theres a machine or a human making plays behind a screename ? not diference. more people paying rake, i only see this being good for pokerstars.

but changes a lot if this ruin their reputation and/or if lots human players stop playing there. then pokerstars will think its terrible to have bots... but if this don't happen, bots are welcome on pokersites .

thats why i think its better for everyone who is playing legit and like playing online poker, that this bots stuff goes for maximum media possible.

if stars reputation don't change anything, if nobody stop playing at their site, why they will ban some machine accounts that pay rake and make table runs ?
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Old 07-01-2015, 01:21 PM   #1338
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

calm down guys, no bots playing except for the few hours yesterday morning. we should wait for stars' final statement.
if it is anything but bots banned, security system upgraded, players refunded losses and rake -> then we act. in the ways mentioned. not yet though.
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Old 07-01-2015, 02:04 PM   #1339
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

You don't seriously believe PS would issue an official public statement about this regardless the outcome, do you?
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Old 07-01-2015, 02:13 PM   #1340
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by OstapBender View Post
I might be missing something from the thread but have there been efforts to contact some of the regulation commissions in the countries where Pokerstars is licensed, such as UKGC (in the UK)?
Yes. It is in hand. I don't want to give a running commentary for obvious reasons but they are aware.
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Old 07-01-2015, 02:13 PM   #1341
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrachBummEnte View Post
Schwein, do you think it's good to post so much info on how bots can be identified? Just gives botters intel on how to program better bots...
I am on a mission to prove to anyone that is willing to listen that a statistical bot detection system can be extremely powerful and efficient. I post some stuff publicly to prove my point, send some to PokerStars to help them searching and withhold a lot for just myself.

Yesterday I posted how they go about their BB deffense, it was mostly speculation. Now I am going to move on to how they play against cbet and here I am sure that I am right. They have a precise formula that takes the bet size they are facing into account. I have played around with different bet sizes and I could probably reverse engineer the exact algorithm they use. Figuring out the rules/formulas the botters use for different situations is time consuming but its not hard by any means.

I am posting below the fold to Cbet IP and Check Fold flop when facing an 80%+ bet size and when facing a small bet of half pot or less <55% pot. I did my research for more bet size brackets but just posting 2 of them to compare. Shout out to Mark from HH-dealer for providing me stuff for free, thanks to him and his site I can actually post some evidence. Please take a look and compare in pairs for each screenname.



Regular human players also take the bet size into account, but the difference in their statistics is usually rather small. I know legit players should be bet size sensitive but they are not. I mean when you are talking to a friend about a hand he will not ask you questions like were you actually facing a 62% pot size bet or a 70% pot size bet because that makes a difference. I am providing the screen for an alias of legit winning regs. They do fold a little bit less against much smaller bets but just a little.




If someone gave me a week time and a good DB coding specialist I could create a system that would be the "Black Friday" for botters.

Last edited by Schwein; 07-01-2015 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 07-01-2015, 02:16 PM   #1342
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

stars use same tactics as always, just be silent and hope that it will all calm down and ppl forget about it, so waiting for them to make a statement, first step or whatever is kinda foolish imo!

Also sadly i think they give a **** about a petition or anything similiar to this -> only ways press or regulators, ppl who can kick Stars in the ass - not the other way around!

+1 for fight obv, but not sure if petition brings anything
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Old 07-01-2015, 03:28 PM   #1343
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

The arrogance of Lee Jones statements and the lack of action by the security team shows that PokerStars is poorly run. I call bull crap on PS not needing players help in catching cheats. Anyone that has been on 2+2 long enough can remember plenty of times cheats have been caught in real time right here on 2+2 from chip dumping, leader board collusion, etc.

Also, the recent post by Schwein further proves these accounts post flop similarities are too close and non-human. PokerStars either knew and did nothing, or their security is very lacking.

The TV show "60 Minutes" did a report on the UB/AP scandal. I'm guessing it can be found on YouTube. It is worth watching to see that it was players that caught the cheating. We as players should never forget that we are the BEST line of defense against cheating! Lee Jones, Poker Stars or their security team saying they don't need player watchdogs is very damning of the problems within PS.

Last edited by ladybruin; 07-01-2015 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 07-01-2015, 03:31 PM   #1344
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFooFighter View Post
You don't seriously believe PS would issue an official public statement about this regardless the outcome, do you?
They stated that they would report once they finish investigation. Furthermore, if they refund money like a few months before this will also be a statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
If someone gave me a week time and a good DB coding specialist I could create a system that would be the "Black Friday" for botters.
That someone should be Stars.
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Old 07-01-2015, 03:34 PM   #1345
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Samanta in the 500z pool right now
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Old 07-01-2015, 04:01 PM   #1346
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

I don't buy the arrogance/stupidity theory. There is just no way people could be stupid enough to not realise.

It's either:

1. Stars is in on it and they are house bots.
2. Stars has realised they would be asked to pay out millions of dollars and lose a huge amount of players, nl games could be more bot infested than we think, and so are trying to avoid that outcome.
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Old 07-01-2015, 04:08 PM   #1347
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

I have more faith in Stars security department than a few posters on 2+2 . Compared with other pokersites Stars are way ahead and will kick out anyone for breaking the rules. We see examples of this almost weekly.

Try to play on other euro sites like iPoker and theres bots everywhere. I will continue to play on Stars.


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Old 07-01-2015, 04:41 PM   #1348
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Are pokerstars meant to notify you when an investigation of a player is over? I sent them an email reporting a NL player over a week ago with all the evidence ( a lot was circumstantial but I explained how his play almost certainly would never be used by a human and thought that they could find stuff I couldn't). They replied saying they'd investigate but now I can still send him money indicating he isn't under investigation but I have received no email to notify me that they've cleared him.
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Old 07-01-2015, 04:42 PM   #1349
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

What if PokerStars is just the best of the worst? What if all the poker sites are horrible at finding bots? You can't give PS a pass for being the best of the worst.

As for arrogance at PS, it is partially a fan boy issue. Take a look at 2+2 over the years. If someone said something negative about PS, there were twenty fan boys willing to defend PS to the point that PS often didn't have to say or do anything themselves. Issues that Lee Jones or PokerStars Steve should have responded to were often defended by fan boys while Jones and Steve remained silent. There was a threads Jones and/or Steve were suppose to respond that they said almost nothing. One thread ended up with The Simpson gif of grampa walking in the door then walking right back out to depict how Lee Jones promised to answer questions only to walk right back out of thread.

Is PS better than the rest of the poker sites on most issues? Sure. But what if they are simply the best of the worst. As an industry leader PS should have been way better on this bot issue.

Last edited by ladybruin; 07-01-2015 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 07-01-2015, 04:46 PM   #1350
devera
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post



If someone gave me a week time and a good DB coding specialist I could create a system that would be the "Black Friday" for botters.
I don't think it makes that much of a difference, but when looking up the reg's stats you used bet size < 51%, instead of 55%. Just pointing it out for accuracy's sake, as I am sure a statistical method is kryptonite for bot rings.

I am convinced there are quite a few poker players that are DB specialists (otherwise there would be no HM, PT etc), let's hope someone jumps on board. It could also prove to be a pretty satisfying endeavour for those who do it. Putting up a system in place to kick the bots out of your game should be something to be proud & brag about
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