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Old 06-27-2015, 09:34 AM   #1251
potbet
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by freewilly12 View Post
Any sighting of 4somn, mox or fedror last few days?

Maybe they are barred to play but able to cash out ( and receive transfers ?? ) ? :
Or maybe Stars read this thread and does not want people to check whether they are frozen/banned atm or not and allows incoming transfers^^

I have not seen Fedor, Susaanin, Samanta or 4somn playing last days. I have almost never played/seen mox anyways (probably different limit). One of them is still active at Ipoker.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:54 AM   #1252
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by freewilly12 View Post
Below a case report of a botter who Stars wasn't able to prove as one.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1185

This great post by Chuck highlights Pokerstar's incompetence.
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Old 06-27-2015, 11:46 AM   #1253
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbsh View Post
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1185

This great post by Chuck highlights Pokerstar's incompetence.
he just wrote another, both are viewable below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Bass View Post
This already feels like opening a Pandora's box I shouldn't want to re-open but whatever...

The problem here is NOT Brian Hastings. It's PokerStars and their absolute joke of a security department. Two years ago when I went to IoM for the Stars meetings I did a couple of months of investigation beforehands and handed them piles and piles of evidence of blatant cheating, a LOT worse than what Hastings did here. To my knowledge they caught one person, and for this guy we had actual screen prints. A big case I handed to them was a guy who won over 6 figures and we had absolutely everything; the VPN he used, the precise address in Canada it was rerouting to, the precise address in USA where he played from, three witnesses who had been in the same room. Stars' response? "Our system doesn't show it, we can't do anything" or something along those lines.

I enjoyed talking to most people from Stars and all their different departments, most of them also seemed very open for criticism and new ideas. The only department that entirely shunned me was the security department, they just basically denied everything despite damning evidence of millions and millions being taken away from the poker comminity annually to the deep pockets of the few rich cheaters who organize these things. It's one thing that they can't keep up with the pace of rich cyber-cheaters, I can understand that. But their attitude, that they literally did not give two ****s about it and refused to even listen, that was something I'll always remember.

"No, this doesn't happen on our site, you are WRONG".
"Come on man just LOOK AT THIS"
"You are wrong"

That was basically the depth of our discussion, obv not a word for word quote but this is how I basically felt they responded.

Since then I have largely both stopped participating in the international poker community and playing on Stars (not trying to sound like a hypocrite, the cheating was not the main reason to this if a reason at all). But like Daryl (aaaaaaaa) posted above it's funny, I talk to people about poker probably 50x less than I used to, and still I actually hear MORE cheating stories than ever before. What Brian did here is like the 739th worst thing I've heard in the last couple of years.

I tried to suggest Stars that they would hire an outside group of tech experts to clean the games. Their security department was, and I assume still is, a complete joke and incapable of detecting anything. Why isn't Hastings banned yet? Because they are unable to detect him still. That PM Bakes posted miiiiight get him banned but without it no way. 0 chance of him getting caught through Stars' own systems. If they spent, say, 100k on hiring some tech nerds, really epic hackers, it would be less than they probably spent hiring Ronaldo's left foot and they could actually see some progress.

People say HS games are dead. Why are they dead? Because every "fish" is a Hastings in disguise and Stars is entirely incapable of doing anything about it. I personally voted with my feet and have opened the Stars.com client probably 3 times this year. It's by far the shadiest site, and depth of all the terrible **** that happens there still is absurd. I forget if it was Dylan or Kevin (imalucksac / lucsac) that posted earlier ITT but it was a very good post from a stand up guy who's relocated / never MA'd. Basically he said that the cheating goes on, everyone knows about it, even Stars might know about it, but it's not gonna change. The best thing you can do is keep playing and hope you can still make money after the cheater tax has been deducted from your paycheck.


________

I don't meant to defend Hastings in any way, the level of delusion in those PMs is absurd and they guy should be shunned from the community. All I am saying is that he's just doing the same thing hundreds of other people are doing every day and is deluded enough to not realize how bad it is. And this is the key point - the ONLY reason we even know about this in the first place is because Hastings actually warned some friends about it. Stars would never have caught him. If he hadn't at least tried to make it a tiny bit better - again I'm not saying it's still not terrible - this thread wouldn't exist. Same with gboro that someone brought up earlier, rarely have I felt so bad than I did about outing him when I realized afterwards what a tiny drop in a bucket it was an the only reason people know about him was because the told them.

________

And to people demanding Mercier & co dropped from Team Stars etc for knowing and not reporting it... come on now. It's a ridiculously horrible spot to be put in as Mercier. Assume you are close friends with Hastings and he confines with you about this, what are you supposed to do? Reporting him would be like a personal attack towards Hastings, because there's 0 chance Mercier & co don't also know how much cheating there's going on and how Hastings is just a drop in a bucket. Why would he report Hastings and not the 500 other guys? If I were in Mercier's shoes I would certainly have said nothing because it's the most reasonable way to address the situation - again a situation that wouldn't exist if Stars gave two ****s about the integrity of their games.

It always baffles me like most regs don't seem to care about this at all. Often I hear people say stuff like, "I play NL50, the pool is so big I don't care if a few guys at my level cheats, I play them very infrequently anyway. And why should I care when someone at 200/400 cheats? That's not my level, I'll never play in that game". But that's just such a wrong way to look at it. If you are a reg on Stars you should be looking at the economy as a whole, nothing is that straightforward. When a guy cheats at levels above you it still has an effect on you indirectly. Maybe a shark at your level fails at his shots to the higher levels because he gets cheated out of his money, and as a result returns to your stakes hurting your winrate, etc etc. I don't know how much gets taken away from the money pool every year to the pockets of cheaters every year but I'd throw the o/u line at maybe 10M (could be really wrong ofc). That's a LOT of NL50 buyins disappearing as extra rake. Think about it. If I were a Stars reg I'd certainly demand some safety and integrity in the games I participate it on a daily basis and vote with my feet if I wasn't given any.


___________

Vanessa, I also agree about many of the things you posted but I don't think you're expressing yourself very well (for the NVG environment), you come across pretty hostile and as a friendly suggestion I'd suggest you stop posting ITT just because there's no upside for you (I assume) but lots of downsides.


_______

I'm not interested in discussing this further though and please don't bombard me with PMs, I have 0 proof of anything anymore as I let go of this two years ago as one of the most draining things I have ever taken part of, and most certainly I'm not interested in looking into it ever again. Just felt like posting that's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Bass View Post
You're right, I don't disagree. I do think it's probably close to impossible for Stars or anyone to have complete control over their games. There's too much money to be made and too many tech savvy greedy people in the world that there wouldn't always be someone who's a step ahead. What they could do, for example, though is to at least make it harder to get away with and make the environment less attractive to consider cheating in the first place. Currently everyone who's in any "circles" at all has a go-to-guy to call if you need a secure VPN and to get back on Stars on a new screen name. And I don't blame the players either, the US legislation is obviously bs, many people have families etc and can't move out. As a young rich poker player I'd move elsewhere, explore the world and play on the side, but if I were a 35yo online reg with 3 kids when BF happened I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't at least be seeking to see how easy it would be to VPN - not for the extra edge playing anonymously but just to be able to participate. Feel free to bash me for this opinion, but I feel like it's just a cold hard fact for many, and what Stars should tackle is these big operations that are providing 100s of players the VPN option all the time, not single players - which in turn are responsible into 100s of anonymous crushers and all of a sudden their combined edge is pretty big from playing anonymous and actually hurts the games.

Like I said before, more than anything what really tilted me about Stars security's response was not that they were unable to catch these guys, it was their attitude. Sure, we were only there for ~4 days, maybe they were just having a bad day 4 days in a row. But the attitude they seemed to have around that time was complete DENIAL, they were nearly rofling me out of the building when I told them what's going on. I could see the head of security guy looking at me like "who the **** does this kid think he is, I've done this job for years, I know better than him", and it really seemed like they didn't give to ****s about even looking into the evidence. This is obviously just how I personally was made feel, and there's some chance I misinterpreted something, but this is how I honestly still remember it. And given how things have only got worse since it seems like they still have the same attitude.

They gave us a number of cheaters they catch, I can't remember how they came up with the formula, but basically they said (iirc) that they catch 9x% of cheaters (really high number). But they singled it out in a way that it was ALL forms of cheating, when most of it is obviously very easy to catch like idiots chip dumping playing HU raising 99x and folding to 100x shoves etc. I'd be interested to know what % of high stakes, high level, intelligent cheating they catch because I don't think the number is very big at all.



Anyway I didn't mean to come across as some poker Jesus, I tried and very much failed to go on this crusade and I don't really have any interest in discussing this further, so I'll go back to lurking now. I hope Stars eventually gets their **** together because I don't see how they can ever gain access back to the US if they don't.
get your **** together, stars!
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:59 PM   #1254
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I followed the thread so far, didn't post because so far I had nothing of interest to bring to the table.

Can provide a little food for thought at this point.
When Chuck Bass talks about the complete denial in stars' security team, that can be explained with "illusory certainty" as described in the best-selling book 'Thinking, fast and slow' by Daniel Kahneman.
He explains that the illusion of competence is so strong that, even after being presented with data showing the uselessness of expert predictions in one particular field (like f.e. the stock market) and proving the overwhelming effects of randomness on the outcomes, those experts will continue to believe in their abilities no matter what (in truth many "failed" experts are just as capable/incapable as them). The gained knowledge about their incompetence gets buried immediately in the backyard of their brain as if it didn't exist. Trying to convince them of their inabilities results in nothing, at most it angers them, just like Chuck described.
Denial is such a fundamental function of the brain and we can't blame these people. Their whole existence is at stake, so their brain protects them from losing their jobs, or falling into depression, etc.

Everyone is biased all the time, some are just informed about it and can work against it.
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Old 06-28-2015, 06:20 AM   #1255
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

I doubt it's denial. I just think there's a lot more for the security department to consider than catch and ban every other cheater out there.
There certainly is enough evidence out there for them to just close all those cheating accounts for good. They just don't want to at this point.
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Old 06-28-2015, 05:24 PM   #1256
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

It destroys my soul slowly seeing some of the accounts still able to transfer money
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Old 06-28-2015, 10:02 PM   #1257
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by freewilly12 View Post
I just tested to send money and fedor, moxyy, 4somniar are able to receive money transfers again.

(They were not able to receive money couple days ago when I tested)

Samanta was the only one right now who wasn't able to receive real money transfer.

Seems like most of the accounts are unfrozen again
Disgraceful

If they let a competent poker player view the hands when these players are at the same tables I bet you could see they know each other hole cards

The "experienced poker players" that work in stars security department haven't got a clue.
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Old 06-29-2015, 12:04 AM   #1258
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

This is unacceptable. I think now it's time that we decide on a deadline for Stars. If they can't get their **** together until x:y:z we bring the collection of all facts to news papers/sites.
I propose this Saturday.
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:49 AM   #1259
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by ETBrooD View Post
This is unacceptable. I think now it's time that we decide on a deadline for Stars. If they can't get their **** together until x:y:z we bring the collection of all facts to news papers/sites.
I propose this Saturday.
just no.
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:13 AM   #1260
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

can u elaborate on this no?! i also think going public as possible is the only right choice now! What u wanna do? Just suck it down and let Stars keep ****** us in the ass while making millions on our backs? sure it will be bad for poker - but this news will not keep the addicts away from playing! but it puts stars the gun on the breast to do something! seems like they don't understand it otherwize.
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:52 AM   #1261
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

So basically, large bot ring found, millions taken from poker economy.

Bots identified.

People running bots allowed to take their $ and in some cases keep playing?

What an advertisement for botting....
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:31 AM   #1262
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Thumbs down Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by TrollAccount View Post
can u elaborate on this no?! i also think going public as possible is the only right choice now! What u wanna do? Just suck it down and let Stars keep ****** us in the ass while making millions on our backs? sure it will be bad for poker - but this news will not keep the addicts away from playing! but it puts stars the gun on the breast to do something! seems like they don't understand it otherwize.
some attention seeking moron who loves drama has probably already contacted lots of people. I'm sure that some people that could report on this actually know about it. Nobody cares though. Somebody outlined why earlier but I don't care to go back and find it but needless to say I 100% agreed. Pretty ironic that you're giving them the "deadline", yet they're the ones that have everybody by the balls.

My advice: Go for it.
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Old 06-29-2015, 09:15 AM   #1263
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S View Post
So basically, large bot ring found, millions taken from poker economy.

Bots identified.

People running bots allowed to take their $ and in some cases keep playing?

What an advertisement for botting....
They probably said sorry. From Hasting's NVG thread i gather that whatever you do, a sorry will fix it.
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Old 06-29-2015, 09:59 AM   #1264
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Is someone able to check with stars if the investigation is still ongoing?
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Old 06-29-2015, 12:04 PM   #1265
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

After all the fees that I have paid for PokerStars, you have to love their automated responses...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFooFighter View Post
Is someone able to check with stars if the investigation is still ongoing?
Thank you for contacting us. Your email was escalated to me as a member of the PokerStars Game Integrity Team.

We are indeed aware of the online discussions alleging a group of accounts to be operating poker bots. Please rest assured that we do not tolerate such activity on PokerStars. We have an extensive arsenal of detection tools in order to ensure that each player is a human being and playing without the use of prohibited programs.

Firstly, we note that the discussions include a list of accounts that are assumed to have been closed due to lack of recent activity. We can confirm that a number of these accounts have indeed been closed for violations of our Terms of Service, but this does not hold true for every account mentioned. Due to our strict privacy policy, we are unable to disclose User IDs in the context of fraud, nor offer comment as to why accounts we might have previously investigated may not have any recent activity.

As for the numerous active accounts mentioned, we do understand the concerns surrounding their playing statistics. Our access to all hand histories on PokerStars allows us to analyse any similarities in playing statistics between these accounts, as well as every other account. However, similar playing statistics alone is not sufficient proof wrongdoing, and we must do our due diligence to ensure that the correct resolution is reached. Our investigation includes, but is not limited to, reviewing their software and playing environments, how they interact with the PokerStars client, as well as analysing their activity in real-time and conducting Turing tests.

We understand your eagerness to have this situation resolved as quickly as possible. We kindly ask for your patience while we thoroughly investigate this matter. The integrity of our games is of paramount importance. There are large amounts of money being moved around our tables, and to ensure that nothing inappropriate is taking place, we must conduct complete reviews. These are serious matters, which must be reviewed carefully. Such investigations do not take minutes or hours, they can take days or weeks. Allegations of cheating in poker are very serious. As such, we cannot do this lightly. Due process must be followed.

PokerStars is regulated and subject to the rule of law. We have chosen to be based in a strong regulatory regime because we believe that regulated online poker is in the players' interests, and because it is good for the industry. A natural consequence of this is that accused players must be given a presumption of innocence, and that we must consider their situation fairly and reasonably.

At this time, we are unable to provide further comment on this case as the investigation is still ongoing. We are doing our utmost to investigate this matter thoroughly in order to reach the correct resolution.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter, and for your continued patience. We will contact you with further details as soon as we are able.

Regards,

Ian Y
PokerStars Game Integrity Team
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:39 PM   #1266
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S View Post
So basically, large bot ring found, millions taken from poker economy.

Bots identified.

People running bots allowed to take their $ and in some cases keep playing?

What an advertisement for botting....
So this is really cliffs? I just got linked to this thread from the NVG thread

No one has received a response from Stars other than a form email, correct?
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:46 PM   #1267
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeXCetuRioN View Post
After all the fees that I have paid for PokerStars, you have to love their automated responses...
[Stars says] "Our investigation includes, but is not limited to, reviewing their software and playing environments, how they interact with the PokerStars client, as well as analysing their activity in real-time and conducting Turing tests."
I'm doing some Turing tests myself, and by analysing their activity in real time, I've established that the Game Integrity team does not possess the ability to exhibit intelligent behavior equivalent to, or indistinguishable from, that of a human.
Alan Turing proposed that a human evaluator would judge natural language conversations between a human and a machine that is designed to generate human-like responses.
Pokerstars does not seem capable of human-like responses. Ergo, it is a machine. A money-printing machine.
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:25 PM   #1268
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollAccount View Post
can u elaborate on this no?! i also think going public as possible is the only right choice now! What u wanna do? Just suck it down and let Stars keep ****** us in the ass while making millions on our backs? sure it will be bad for poker - but this news will not keep the addicts away from playing! but it puts stars the gun on the breast to do something! seems like they don't understand it otherwize.
b/c it will OBVIOUSLY scare the **** out of the fish. Which is NUT LOW FOR POKER EVER. jfc
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:27 PM   #1269
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S View Post
So basically, large bot ring found, millions taken from poker economy.

Bots identified.

People running bots allowed to take their $ and in some cases keep playing?

What an advertisement for botting....
In light of this I agree that people should be trying to get as much publicity as possible. Bad headlines forcing sites to take this stuff more seriously is preferable to it continuing unpunished, or even half heartedly punished.

Its insane that a company the size of stars has a security department that has been outperformed by one guy with a PTR account and some spare time, and insulting that the profits and rake aren't being paid back to players even when they are caught.
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:23 PM   #1270
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes View Post
So this is really cliffs? I just got linked to this thread from the NVG thread

No one has received a response from Stars other than a form email, correct?

No one has received a clear response other than a for email yes. Because of that we cannot be certain of what is going on and the following is speculation at this point but the fact that they are able to receive money certainly points towards the fact that stars is letting them withdraw their funds. Most likely because they cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt or something. I would be very astonished to see them playing again though. Most of the time stars will deem them "suspect" and as such will bar them from playing on stars any further.

Last edited by kelnel; 06-29-2015 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:02 PM   #1271
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeXCetuRioN View Post
However, similar playing statistics alone is not sufficient proof wrongdoing,
...
Ian Y
PokerStars Game Integrity Team
Some people would say that statistics indeed are a sufficient proof. For example, all of us.
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Old 06-29-2015, 07:57 PM   #1272
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

I was away for a while. Everyone has bills to pay etc.

I discussed previously how the alleged bot accounts changed their stats, namely BB defend vs BTN, around the same time. I got plenty of archive of HH from HH-dealer for free, for which I am very grateful. It looks like they didnt change roughly same time but simply overnight, same day.



Those are 3 alleged bot accounts compared with banned IPushMyPrius account. Checked the suspects on IPK and they all changed around the same date +-2days. I chose the defend against minraise, because its the most outstanding one, the 3 main suspects have 99%+ in October.

Now I see only two possible explanations for this, they all work closely together or they have the same program that is updated for all of them same time. Samanta and seregaxx were kind enough to chime in and assure us that they dont work with anyone else, so...
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:12 PM   #1273
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
I was away for a while. Everyone has bills to pay etc.

I discussed previously how the alleged bot accounts changed their stats, namely BB defend vs BTN, around the same time. I got plenty of archive of HH from HH-dealer for free, for which I am very grateful. It looks like they didnt change roughly same time but simply overnight, same day.



Those are 3 alleged bot accounts compared with banned IPushMyPrius account. Checked the suspects on IPK and they all changed around the same date +-2days. I chose the defend against minraise, because its the most outstanding one, the 3 main suspects have 99%+ in October.

Now I see only two possible explanations for this, they all work closely together or they have the same program that is updated for all of them same time. Samanta and seregaxx were kind enough to chime in and assure us that they dont work with anyone else, so...
If this is not enough for Stars than...
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:17 PM   #1274
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

theyve been proven incompetent, uninterested and greedy as ****
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:48 PM   #1275
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes View Post
So this is really cliffs? I just got linked to this thread from the NVG thread

No one has received a response from Stars other than a form email, correct?
I got a non generic reply from PokerStars two days ago. They assured me that they have made big progress with the whole case.
The cliffs can be found here https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1230 and I totally agree with them.

To main difference between my views and the ones shared by PokerStars Integrity Team is that I do think that certain similarities are actually a sufficient proof of botting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeXCetuRioN View Post
However, similar playing statistics alone is not sufficient proof wrongdoing, and we must do our due diligence to ensure that the correct resolution is reached. Our investigation includes, but is not limited to, reviewing their software and playing environments, how they interact with the PokerStars client, as well as analysing their activity in real-time and conducting Turing tests.

Regards,

Ian Y
PokerStars Game Integrity Team
Some similarities can be explained just by coincidence, or having common stats in a large population while others cant be. There is whole science based on it called statistics and terms like statistically significant or 6 sigma events are actually precisely defined. Lets take at a look at my previous post, the one with BB defend vs BTN. Are those numbers alone proving that they are botting? Absolutely not. Could it happen that 4+ unrelated accounts changed their strategy so much and its just coincidence? Well, the chances are slim to none. I think this screenshot alone is solid proof that they are somehow related.


In theory its possible that someone plays blackjack and somehow always makes the correct adjustment for the number of high cards in the deck. In practice though its enough for casinos to ban that guy for using the hi-lo card count.

In theory its possible that someone writes a PHd dissertation that is a copy of another science paper but in practice it will get him expelled for plagiarism. If he decides to take the "You cant really tell how I came up with my dissertation just by looking at the final outcome. You have to also look at how I wrote it page by page to concluded if I copied someone else work or came up with it by myself" line of defence he will additionally become the laughing stock of the community for years to come.

When it comes to poker it can be hard to tell which similarities can be a result of coincidence and which cant, but the sites have to start writing algorithmic systems to do it, otherwise we will see a lot more cases like the one in this thread.

Same preflop stats can actually be explained by having the same chart. In another thread skier explained that he is supplying such charts to his students and since charts arent against the rules everything is fine and clear.
It gets more complicated when it comes to PLO postflop play. Since there are no charts for deep postflop cash games, extremely similar stats have to be either same person on the accounts or same bot. I mean 25bb preflop holdem can be charted on few A4 pages but charts for 100bb postflop omaha would have to be the size of Kazakhstan or Russia.

I wrote a summary of my methods and concluded that everything I did could be done a lot faster with proper software https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1192
Implementing something like this and then slowly building upon it would be a really good idea.

Cliffs:

I believe that extremely similar stats actually prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone is using software to assist his play. The 45+ accounts I found across all major poker sites do have extremely similar stats and I think they are botting.

Last edited by Schwein; 06-29-2015 at 09:11 PM.
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