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Old 06-26-2015, 04:21 AM   #1226
outfit
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Schwein, what is your opinon about the hole card sharing?
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Old 06-26-2015, 04:27 AM   #1227
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by outfit View Post
Schwein, what is your opinon about the hole card sharing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plw View Post
Someone know if they were sharing cards btw the accounts aswell ?
I stopped pursuing this theory completely.

I saw data from some pretty big DBs. Totally no reason to believe that they are colluding, card sharing or working together in any way. I never claimed they are.

They dont run above EV when seated at the same table, and they have much lower observed winrate as they should when seated with another good reg instead of a random player.
.
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Old 06-26-2015, 04:48 AM   #1228
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
I stopped pursuing this theory completely.

I saw data from some pretty big DBs. Totally no reason to believe that they are colluding, card sharing or working together in any way. I never claimed they are.

They dont run above EV when seated at the same table, and they have much lower observed winrate as they should when seated with another good reg instead of a random player.

Any way to check their non SD winnings when seated at the same table?

Knowing other hole cards means you know when to fold on earlier streets and also when to bluff .

Last edited by jas; 06-26-2015 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 06-26-2015, 05:16 AM   #1229
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
I stopped pursuing this theory completely.

I saw data from some pretty big DBs. Totally no reason to believe that they are colluding, card sharing or working together in any way. I never claimed they are.

They dont run above EV when seated at the same table, and they have much lower observed winrate as they should when seated with another good reg instead of a random player.
Right.
This is what I remember reading.
It seems this thread is going in the hole card sharing idea again and I am wondering if Schweins view has changed.

The chip dumping to give the perception that you are not running above EV is interesting. Or maybe it is not interesting and it does not work like this...
I don't know

Should the hole card view be dismissed?

This thread has been interesting to me because I am more or less
in disbelief that a bot can have such a huge winrate without
some sort of collusion.
If so, it is impressive who ever programed this thing.

Schwein, does your stance remain the same as before?
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Old 06-26-2015, 07:31 AM   #1230
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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Hey all,

We are going to talk about this on the Pokercast tomorrow. Can someone please give me a cliffs?

Also, if anyone has any questions they would like asked of the Stars rep please post them.

PM'd Schwein to see if he might like to come on the show to discuss as well.

Cliffs:

1-10) Schwein (and people who helped him behind the scenes) did an awesome job! and should be rewarded by pokersites and the poker community

11) Schwein followed the great work from Grethe and Oink in https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...58&postcount=1 who detected alleged bots. Most of them were *banned*

12) Schwein found new suspects (mostly russian and eastern european) and compared their stats to each other and to the *banned* accounts. A lot (not all) of their postflop stats were very very similar. Some of them were chatting though and seemed to be tilting sometimes which makes them look like human players. But as a ton of almost identical stats does not lie they are probably semi-automated bots (i.e. human takes over in some spots or human clicks the buttons while being told by a software which buttons to click)

13) Others joined this thread and it turned out that some of the screennames have been reported several times by different players (some reported more than a year ago). We do not know if Stars investigated or maybe the accusations were lacking of solid evidence. However they were allowed to continue playing.

14) There were speculations about the alleged botters sharing holecards. Schwein investigated but it turned out that them sharing holecards is somewhat unlikey as neither they are running significantly over ai-ev nor they have higher observed winrates when playing at the same table. The alleged botters however took millions out of the system.

15) The statistical methods improved to build a solid case while everybody was waiting for them to be frozen/banned by Stars. It turned out that there are players on other pokersites who share the same suspicious stats revealed by Schwein.

16) Alleged botters Samanta81 and Seregaxx replied in this thread but they did not post anything useful regarding the main accusation of having almost identical stats

17) Schwein and Stars worked together while there were speculations about refunds. Common sense (and maybe also found in rules of gambling commissions) is that pokersites are not allowed to profit from foul play. As the alleged botters produced a lot of rake (several million $) [and the pokersites profit is the rake] they should at least pay back the rake completely to the players being cheated

18) About 2 weeks after this thread started we do not see any of the alleged botters playing on Stars while some of them still play at other pokersites atm

19) Now the thread cools down a bit while there are speculations about the alleged botters chipdumping vs each other and while we are waiting for other pokersites to ban them and pay back refunds



*banned* needs some explanation. Stars does not give information about players being banned and if so why they are banned. But it turned out that a lot of them stopped playing the same time early that year despite crushing the games before. So, it is very likely that they were banned for botting.


Stars rep:
- what happened after f.e. Straate and pastafiore accused the players of cheating by reporting them to Stars? Has there been an investigation and if so how is it possible that they have not been detected despite almost identical stats?
- Stars needs to take the botters and the operators of botting-forums or at least the guys who sold their identities to court. Atm these guys are more or less freerolling and there is basically no incentive not to do it again




btw what time the pokercast starts and where to find it?

Last edited by potbet; 06-26-2015 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 06-26-2015, 09:38 AM   #1231
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by MastaAces View Post
.
Not running above ev is not enough to say they did not share hole cards. Imagine they were sharing hole cards, you would expect them to run over ev after 1M hands together maybe but firstly I doubt they played this many hands and secondly while knowing 4 extra cards they still could have run poorly in AI pots to the tune of a few hundreds BI under which would effectively show them as running on par with their EV.

If on the other side they had been running super hot in AI AND sharing hole cards, you would have ridiculous numbers like 200k hands and 300 BI over ev or w/e. Which would almost be a proof in itself they were sharing hole cards.
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:01 AM   #1232
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Quote:
1-10) Schwein (and people who helped him behind the scenes) did an awesome job! and should be rewarded by pokersites and the poker community
Schwein is the man! Community owes him a lot.

Grethe and I just scratched the surface. We didnt really do anything others didnt do before us. We werent the first or only ones to report these bastards. We looked at stats and reported accounts to Stars, but others did the same. Stars was in all fairness well ahead of us and had banned some of the accounts when we wrote the first posts about it and reported 7 players in march (or was it february..?)

This thing didnt get traction untill Schwein got it going. It was Schwein who showed that well known mid stakes crushers were very very likely bots. It also seems to me that Schwein assisting stars in the investigation has been another key factor.
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:44 AM   #1233
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

So right now Fedor, Susanin and 4somn etc are all banned?
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:51 AM   #1234
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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So right now Fedor, Susanin and 4somn etc are all banned?
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Sorry guys, I'm traveling right now(summer) and will not be able to read/post on 2+2 for 2-3 weeks due to the fact that I don't have PC with me.
^
They are on holidays, think thats an synonym for banned! But what do we know, no pupblic statement yet from stars - so yeah it seems like they are gone - if they are banned just stars and the "players" themself know...
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:57 PM   #1235
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

seregaxx is playing on plo400 6max table right now
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:10 PM   #1236
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

have few days between trip
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:47 PM   #1237
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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So right now Fedor, Susanin and 4somn etc are all banned?
I think they just have the bot camp holiday right now with seregaxx.
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Old 06-26-2015, 05:42 PM   #1238
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

I just tested to send money and fedor, moxyy, 4somniar are able to receive money transfers again.

(They were not able to receive money couple days ago when I tested)

Samanta was the only one right now who wasn't able to receive real money transfer.

Seems like most of the accounts are unfrozen again
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Old 06-26-2015, 05:55 PM   #1239
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

seregaxx playing again. didnt he want to go on vacation??!"? WTF STARS?!?! IS THIS A ****IN INSIDE JOB OR WHATS GOING ON.

Somebody send me real names of every account holder you know please. I AMT TILT
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Old 06-26-2015, 06:21 PM   #1240
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Use your data analysis skills and exploit their game.
Or is this still not an option?
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Old 06-26-2015, 06:22 PM   #1241
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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seregaxx playing again. didnt he want to go on vacation??!"? WTF STARS?!?! IS THIS A ****IN INSIDE JOB OR WHATS GOING ON.

Somebody send me real names of every account holder you know please. I AMT TILT
Don't worry everything is gonna be just fine. You will receive your $28,13 refund and stars will decide to not tell any player anything. Might also help with the lol_refund they are planning to do. Owh and seregaxx I wish it was your head today in France (in case you can read it).
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Old 06-26-2015, 06:27 PM   #1242
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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I just tested to send money and fedor, moxyy, 4somniar are able to receive money transfers again.
Maybe they are all from estonia?

Or operated in estonia?

Speculation on my part.
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Old 06-26-2015, 06:57 PM   #1243
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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Maybe they are all from estonia?

Or operated in estonia?

Speculation on my part.
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I just tested to send money and fedor, moxyy, 4somniar are able to receive money transfers again.
.
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Old 06-26-2015, 07:08 PM   #1244
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Lol.... beer goggles. Oh dear. Sorry

But i remember thinking that when xfers were nit getting through
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Old 06-26-2015, 07:23 PM   #1245
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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Lol.... beer goggles. Oh dear. Sorry

But i remember thinking that when xfers were nit getting through
Maybe you didn't see my post but like week ago no one of the remaining accounts were not eligible for real money transfers. Now they all are except samanta.

You could try to send 0.01USD to NoyelHayes or $tinger 88 and see yourself what it says when the accs are frozen.

seregaxx I didn't even try because apparently you can't send / receive money on stars.ee
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:16 PM   #1246
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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I just tested to send money and fedor, moxyy, 4somniar are able to receive money transfers again.
That's an unexpected and worrying development. Have they been seen back at the tables yet?

If Stars isn't convinced by Schwein's data analysis, and Stars' own bot-detection techniques aren't conclusive, then I'm not sure what to think.
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Old 06-27-2015, 05:25 AM   #1247
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Lol everyone who can count til three and can read stats can easily see that something rly fishy going on by this accounts, so if stars rly let them continue with their shady business I think we should go public and bring this in as many newspapers, televisionshows as possible to hit stars there where it hurts them the most - at their own pockets! I rly rly can't understand how this guys can come back and continue like nothing happened, it's a spit in the face of every honest grinder! I'll keep playing on Stars cause yeah they are the world biggest site and boycott them would cost me even more then those bots BUT if this will shown up as true and this guys will sit on the same tables as me again I'll do my best to reduce the value of the Brand "PokerStars" and their stokes as most as I can! This includes mailing every ****ty "journalist" I can reach and spread the word to everyone I know and get known by playing poker!
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Old 06-27-2015, 06:53 AM   #1248
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Thing is that their decison what to make with this whole issue will always be at least in part a "political" one. Who knows what reasons they have to not permaclose those accounts. Their main concern is always gonna be the business they have to protect. Might be better for them to conclude some of the accounts can't be proven to have cheated.
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Old 06-27-2015, 07:16 AM   #1249
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

its obv their defense is:

I play awesome, other people try to do exactly what I do and that is why our stats are so similar, they are copying me.

and PS says, "oh, ok. you pay mad rake, continue. Rape all the humans who legitimately play poker."
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Old 06-27-2015, 09:13 AM   #1250
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Samanta still not able to receive real money transfers. Others are.

Any sighting of 4somn, mox or fedror last few days?

Maybe they are barred to play but able to cash out ( and receive transfers ?? ) ? :

(seregaxx playing doesn't support this hypothesis )

Below a case report of a botter who Stars wasn't able to prove as one.

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