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Old 06-17-2015, 03:37 AM   #1101
Ilya N
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

If the refund is to be made are they gonna take the money from players who are up against those bots?
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:40 AM   #1102
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

2 posts by Schwein added to OP.
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:08 AM   #1103
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by gavz101 View Post
Can they claim investigation costs to reduce the amount paid to players do you know?
The regulator can do pretty much what they like in some ways. They try to reach an agreement with the operator about the specific case. The operator has an interest in reaching an agreement with them as the regulator can impose specific licence restrictions just for them, some of which might be very onerous/expensive to implement and ultimately they could pull the licence. They also have the power to pull individual key decision makers personal licence which would make them unemployable at that level at any UK licenced site.

There is not really a poker cheating example, the best I have is a software fault ona FOBT (slot machine) game. In the UK they have to publish the theoretical Return To Player (t-RTP) for the game and one new game was running for a while when the operator(s) found that the real RTP (r-RTP) was a bit worse than the t-RTP. Now this went on for a bit, it could be variance, they could not find the "fault" but they let the game continue to be used (that decision nearly cost a couple of personal licences BTW) but they reported it properly to the UKGC (the figures are al part of the operator return anyway).

This meant that thousands of players had a theoretical loss to the operator but of course there was no way to trace which players had theoretically lost out not just as it is not account based betting like poker but because you can't tell who might have had the one extra win in a session.

In the report they published they calculated the revenues made on the game and made the operator/supplier pay that - the first 50k to the UKGC to pay for their investigation costs and the rest to gambling treatment and research charities. Now that was the top end estimate of the theoretical loss, indeed it was all the losses - the site got no "help" to pay for their investigation or for putting the s/w right. In practice the error ended up costing the supplier a significant amount of money, a clear net loss, a decent dent in their revenues.

Similarly with a criminal known to have lost a lot - even though the operator reported them as a suspicious betting activity because they were not quick enough about it and/or did not monitor the player well enough (their VIP programme had a lot more info than their fraud team) they made them pay every penny he had lost to them, the freebie race tickets and the like were not deductible, nor their invstigation costs.

So, the only examples I have had the UKGC making sure that licence failure resulted in some financial loss for the operator from the whole sorry tale, with that negotiated settlement done at the end of the process, just before the UKGC published their report.

Sorry that's a bit long and it is not a simple answer to your question.
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:38 AM   #1104
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Can a mod edit the title? Party should be inserted by now.
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:16 AM   #1105
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

please open a new thread for party bots!
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:17 AM   #1106
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

A suggestion Schwein - could you ask Stars integrity team to not just pass the names of the suspended accounts to UKGC but also ask UKGC to ask all UK licenced poker sites to investigate any accounts they hold using the same names.

Seems silly to chase through tons of data when likely the identified names we already have is enough to get those other sites to investigate the same people.

I know some may not like the privacy implications of this suggestion but all sites have to have systems for dealing with allegations of cheating vs specific individuals, teams used to doing confidential investigations. Once the other sites check their clint list they will need to investigate them and report that investigation back to the UKGC.

24 or 48 hours should be enough to get every account linked to the same IDs identified
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:33 AM   #1107
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Can a mod edit the title? Party should be inserted by now.
done.
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:38 AM   #1108
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Schwein, have you been in contact with Party? I'm not sure if they even took me seriously when I contacted them. I just got the lame "...blaa department will investigate blah..." and it sounded like they have no idea of what they're even investigating.
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:45 AM   #1109
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Would be a good idea when contacting them to direct them to this thread as well. I'm sure knowing that the issue is being openly discussed here will help focus their minds.
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:51 AM   #1110
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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please open a new thread for party bots!
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-view-1474198/
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:53 AM   #1111
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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Would be a good idea when contacting them to direct them to this thread as well. I'm sure knowing that the issue is being openly discussed here will help focus their minds.
Of course, I linked them here. Probably others playing on Party should also address their concerns to them with as much relevant information as possible.
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Old 06-17-2015, 07:11 AM   #1112
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

I've emailed my Party VIP manager with a link to this thread, have played a lot of hands with the accounts in question and they have been around a long time. I don't have access to my older DB as it's on another computer but I was playing hands with ADIDASex as early as June 2013. Can't say its a huge surprise as they all played so weird but I'm shocked by quite how much they've managed to make. I dread to think what the situation is like on iPoker and 888.
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Old 06-17-2015, 07:13 AM   #1113
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

It shouldnt be that hard for stars to look for patterns like bluffing when another suspected account has blockers, specially if its the nut flush one.
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Old 06-17-2015, 07:18 AM   #1114
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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It shouldnt be that hard for stars to look for patterns like bluffing when another suspected account has blockers, specially if its the nut flush one.
It shouldn't be hard, yet they have incenticve to keep it under the rug. I am several 100k below ev in allins. Players will claim compensation for Stars' incompetence. That is even more true for Party of course.
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Old 06-17-2015, 08:17 AM   #1115
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by PURPLEPILS99 View Post
It means that they literally stopped cash outs for anyone who plays those stakes on a regular basis to make sure no one cashes out any more money until they're proven innocent... Stars may not have dealt/been dealing with this in the best way possible but they're not that dumb. The suspected accounts are obviously not being allowed to cash out and if you think otherwise then ur not too bright.
lol I don't know what to believe man Pokerstars credibility is taking a huge hit right now and unless you have proof then you can't for 100% know that's true. so everyone playing these stakes know about the bots and anyone trying to make a withdraw is bring denied & receiving the message that they are under investigation?
I'd like to believe what you are saying is true but there really is no way to know unless you work at Pokerstars offices.
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Old 06-17-2015, 08:20 AM   #1116
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Let's say they have a bot winning 200k per year at 1/2 zoom. What is stopping them to have a separate computer doing all the calculations on the side and play on a clean computer free of foreign software?

Last edited by Mig; 06-17-2015 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 06-17-2015, 08:34 AM   #1117
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

@Mig
PRs should probably some routine queries and check players' stats against known BOTs'stat
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Old 06-17-2015, 08:57 AM   #1118
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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@Mig
PRs should probably some routine queries and check players' stats against known BOTs'stat
Do we have some idea how much the bot pool is running over or under EV ?
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Old 06-17-2015, 09:13 AM   #1119
Ilya N
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

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Let's say they have a bot winning 200k per year at 1/2 zoom. What is stopping them to have a separate computer doing all the calculations on the side and play on a clean computer free of foreign software?
This. And they can also sell the bot for % of profits. They can tweak some of the stats without losing much profit. Or develop a new bot with different stats potentially even more profitable. Basically since the winning program exists we can't expect a fair play anymore.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:35 AM   #1120
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

I play NL100 speed on ipoker and there are a tons of bot.

Bikanah3k for example is a bot playing against me everyday, but he is terrible. Knowing someone is a bot help the good regulars only if you can stay discipline and not tilting. The second you are on your B game the bot has a huge edge but it's the same if you play your B game vs bad regulars (you're gonna lose anyways).

Bikanah3k share his bot with other players, he was playing NL50 pounds (regular table) before and had identical stats to another player always on his table. I don't remember his name because he seem to disappear all of the sudden but they we're both the same bot.

I'm only naming them because i have analyze them only, but i'm pretty sure a decent % of the regulars at NL100 speed on ipoker are bots, and i'm even more sure that a good % of the shortstack pro playing the same game are also bot. I've seen Bikanah3k and others ckeck back the nut on the river couple of time, it seem like their bot have some flaws and don't read the board correctly sometime.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:36 PM   #1121
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by YaBoyINthe604 View Post
lol I don't know what to believe man Pokerstars credibility is taking a huge hit right now and unless you have proof then you can't for 100% know that's true. so everyone playing these stakes know about the bots and anyone trying to make a withdraw is bring denied & receiving the message that they are under investigation?

I'd like to believe what you are saying is true but there really is no way to know unless you work at Pokerstars offices.

Purple has had his account cashouts suspended till the investigation is finished. It's not just the suspected bots. It's confirmed as purple told us his cashouts were suspended. I have confidence he's NOT a bot as his play is nothing like the rest of these alleged bots.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:58 PM   #1122
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

Schwein, I created another topic where I tried to make my own investigation. I have some interesting result, so would be great if you take a look at them.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...stars-1540212/
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:43 PM   #1123
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by YaBoyINthe604 View Post
lol I don't know what to believe man Pokerstars credibility is taking a huge hit right now and unless you have proof then you can't for 100% know that's true. so everyone playing these stakes know about the bots and anyone trying to make a withdraw is bring denied & receiving the message that they are under investigation?
I'd like to believe what you are saying is true but there really is no way to know unless you work at Pokerstars offices.
Ya obviously its not 100% proof but if the most legit regs cannot withdraw then id like to believe the players that are actually under investigation are certainly not able to withdraw.

Also i was cleared a few days ago when i emailed them fwiw.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:48 PM   #1124
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

everythin you say is correct purple pills. that being said im down like 60k at 1/2 and .5/1 in the past year or so and am up at 2/5 and all hu. seems odd. i think these bots ate a lot from the overall pool making it very hard to win
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:00 PM   #1125
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them

I have replied in the other thread, why I dont think there is anything fishy about the accounts listed there despite the RPTR stats similarities.
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