Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-16-2015, 05:49 PM   #1076
mike1270
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,043
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

just finished reading this thread - WOW WOW

thanks to OP and other who have help ID and out the bots

I am also surprised that bot can beat 100PLO it seems without sharing hole card!

are these bots playing a short stack game?
mike1270 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 05:50 PM   #1077
4-Star General
adept
 
4-Star General's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,012
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1270 View Post
just finished reading this thread - WOW WOW

thanks to OP and other who have help ID and out the bots

I am also surprised that bot can beat 100PLO it seems without sharing hole card!

are these bots playing a short stack game?
Full stack, sir
4-Star General is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 05:51 PM   #1078
Kyyberi
enthusiast
 
Kyyberi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 54
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Not sure if it's checked, but do they play a lot at the same tables? Like is the aggression from BB the same when there is another bot in the hand in SB or some unknown? Or any other tendencies of having diversity on the frequencies when other bots are in the table or not? Not sure if this can be made with HEM/PT, but should be doable with Stars database and softwares.
Kyyberi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 07:06 PM   #1079
Schwein
centurion
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Numbers dont lie
Posts: 115
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Please read it all guys. Lets move on to Party. I believe the guys running the same bot over there are:

ADIDASex
calmeguru
hornet014
fierceberserk
Pivovich
Ravvinn
suxyourphone

Anyone with access to PokerTableratings premium is kindly requested to post screenshots of all 7 of them with stats. I was doing my comparisons on 25-120k samples which is very messy compared to the luxury of having 1M samples on RPTR for Stars. Those are the HEM samples for the alleged botters on Party




And another screenshot showing stuff I have described earlier here https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1071



Now the compared aliases for Party (bots) and Stars (PSbots). The aliases have slightly more hands so things start to look really similar.





The Party accounts in question did go 7/7 on the stat I shared with Stars security.

One really important final note!!!

Me and my associates checked how stats are calculated in HEM and PT4. Some stats are different for the same HH sample when compared between PT4, HEM and RPTR. The most important differences are AFQ for flop, turn, river. Yes all 27 accounts on Stats from my list have really close AFQ river when comparing RPTR vs RPTR.

And they have once again really close AFQ river when comparing HEM vs HEM stats for them, but the AFQ river on RPTR is 23 on average. The AFQ river is 30 on average when looking in HEM at all the accounts.

Last edited by Schwein; 06-16-2015 at 07:12 PM.
Schwein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 08:44 PM   #1080
jas
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 210
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
If this is real, and the job cuts are described as "natural wastage" or some BS like that, there's gonna be a massive outbreak of WTFs. Firing game integrity staff in the middle of the biggest crisis in game integrity for years sounds completely insane. What in the bleeding **** is going on? Is Dmitry still onboard?

The suspected bot accounts simply have to be frozen. It's the only way to restore faith in the system, isn't it?
It's obviously not been done to "reduce costs".

They were fired because they ignored reports of these players on numerous occasions by different players since October 2014.
jas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 08:46 PM   #1081
jas
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 210
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Like I said before, this is gonna tAke a while. Stars security team don't know what they are doing so that's gonna add some time to it. Also, pokerstars wants this story to die down so that when they make the decision about compensation, they face less bad publicity and backlash.

Anyway, here's an email:


Thank you for contacting us. Your email was escalated to me as a member of the PokerStars Game Integrity Team.

We understand your eagerness to have this situation resolved as quickly as possible.

The integrity of our games is of paramount importance. There are large amounts of money being moved around our tables, and to ensure that nothing inappropriate is taking place, we must conduct complete reviews. These are serious matters, which must be reviewed carefully. Such investigations do not take minutes or hours, they can take days or weeks. Allegations of cheating in poker are very serious. As such, we cannot do this lightly. Due process must be followed.

PokerStars is regulated and subject to the rule of law. We have chosen to be based in a strong regulatory regime because we believe that regulated online poker is in the players' interests, and because it is good for the industry. A natural consequence of this is that accused players must be given a presumption of innocence, and that we must consider their situation fairly and reasonably.

At this time, we are unable to provide further comment on this case as the investigation is still ongoing. We are doing our utmost to investigate this matter thoroughly in order to reach the correct resolution, and will strive to ensure that any players deemed to have been harmed by unfair play are offered fair and appropriate compensation.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter, and for your continued patience. We will contact you with further details as soon as we are able.
jas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 09:17 PM   #1082
.isolated
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 21,268
Thumbs down Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by jas View Post
It's obviously not been done to "reduce costs".

They were fired because they ignored reports of these players on numerous occasions by different players since October 2014.
for real. naive to think otherwise and start bashing Stars for doing this.
.isolated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 09:41 PM   #1083
lvanhoe
old hand
 
lvanhoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,383
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
Some stuff from the HEM. The initial list in the OP was prepared based on similarities between RPTR accounts and the calculated distance between account pairs.

I wanted to prove additionally that its not a bunch of random aggro accounts and that why I started to look for stats which are uncommon for aggro regulars and uncommon in general.

The following screens are prepared based on a large DB from 1 October 2014 to 1 January 2015. The accounts in question tend to perform an aggressive action on flop and turn with the same frequency and it tends to be over 15% for all 4 stats.

All the accounts in question have the same 3bet as squeeze, I have first described it here https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=101
It makes no sense to have 3bet=sqz when playing 100bb+, winning players very rarely play like this and its uncommon for aggressive players as well. So its not like 3bet=sqz is some secret formula that increases the winrate.

All the accounts had the BB Agg = Overall Agg, once again it makes no sense, winning players tend to have much lower BB Agg then overall aggression (they range is wider and weaker in BB).
You have done tremendous work. I just have one question about this.

These bots were among the biggest winners on their stakes. How were they able to be if their stats differ THAT much from the other winning regs? Couldn't it be that someone just took a huge step towards GTO-solving PLO and programmed that knowledge into these bots?

And when i say GTO solving i dont mean totally solved. I mean, the bots would be playing higher than 100 and 200 PLO if they were AI's that totally solved GTO. It just strikes me as so weird that these guys are able to play so different from the other winning regs and still win hugely. They must be doing something right?*

*All this becomes bs when they were sharing holecards, but no evidence has been found for this, and early evidence seems to discard that theory.

Cliffs: how on earth could these bots win so much money in todays tough poker climate when all their stats seem to prove, in your words, that they couldn't be winning players?

Last edited by lvanhoe; 06-16-2015 at 09:46 PM.
lvanhoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 09:59 PM   #1084
Don Melchor
Pooh-Bah
 
Don Melchor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The way of the warrior
Posts: 5,635
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated View Post
for real. naive to think otherwise and start bashing Stars for doing this.
naive is to think they did it for the integrity of the game, they where incompetent before, now just watch. afaik they fired a lot of people and not only related to ring games or bot detection*

One thing is for sure, they did it to reduce costs, When amaya bought PS they where told they where not going to fire people and thats exactly what theyre doing. not that it matters to us directly but its common sense that the people that come in will have a time adjusting and will not be as "sharp"

I see it as amaya just being amaya
Don Melchor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 10:33 PM   #1085
Simonsayscall
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 291
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

The possible bots at party play 5/10 reasonably often
Simonsayscall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 10:34 PM   #1086
YaBoyINthe604
adept
 
YaBoyINthe604's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 719
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by PURPLEPILS99 View Post
Can confirm they are not able to cash out. I requested a cash out and they did not let me while they were "investigating me" since i play those games all day every day. So clearly they are not able to cashout since they are the ones who are actually being investigated.
This doesn't mean or prove anything, all this can confirm is that you are not able to cash out. Stars have proven they are incompetent and untrustworthy! over the botting issue and I would be surprised if any of the botters left more than $5000 in their accounts at anytime.
YaBoyINthe604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 11:04 PM   #1087
Dandan160808
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 135
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I've seen no link off mass firings from stars and word of mouth is not proof. There's no link to this and it was started by a guy who said his friend worked at stars and now looking for a job?? I doubt people have been fired for what ever reason. When stating stuff like this at least give a link or it turns in to a mass of rumours. Schwein et al are doing a great job. 16 confirmed cheaters shut down on this list. All stats are very close and playing like a lunatic makes them the top earners over the year?? I still think whole cards are being shared due to a few dead cards and data key loggers that give screen shots to anyone you play are pretty easy to stick on a players machine. All Trojan horse TSR's run in the victims background feeding data straight to the bots. It's possible that user accounts might be compromised for these bots to be playing like rubbish taking their time to call with aces when you represent so many flushes and straights. I've seen their clocks tick down to near zero before they call with a pair against a bluff that represents a lot more combinations.
Dandan160808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 11:26 PM   #1088
Ilya N
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 315
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Even if they ban these players, the bot owners can always sell their bots at % of the winnings like skier_5 did.

Basically all this means that since winning program exist, any winning player becomes a suspect of botting which means good luck to anyone trying to make it against bots. And also good luck to proving that you're not a bot if you make it. The whole ecosystem becomes a joke.
Ilya N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2015, 11:35 PM   #1089
Don Melchor
Pooh-Bah
 
Don Melchor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The way of the warrior
Posts: 5,635
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandan160808 View Post
I've seen no link off mass firings from stars and word of mouth is not proof. There's no link to this and it was started by a guy who said his friend worked at stars and now looking for a job?? I doubt people have been fired for what ever reason. When stating stuff like this at least give a link or it turns in to a mass of rumours. .
I understand your point of view, but you dont have to believe it for it to be true, doenst make a difference, Truth works like that
Don Melchor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 12:05 AM   #1090
outfit
old hand
 
outfit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,396
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by lvanhoe View Post
You have done tremendous work. I just have one question about this.

These bots were among the biggest winners on their stakes. How were they able to be if their stats differ THAT much from the other winning regs? Couldn't it be that someone just took a huge step towards GTO-solving PLO and programmed that knowledge into these bots?

And when i say GTO solving i dont mean totally solved. I mean, the bots would be playing higher than 100 and 200 PLO if they were AI's that totally solved GTO. It just strikes me as so weird that these guys are able to play so different from the other winning regs and still win hugely. They must be doing something right?*

*All this becomes bs when they were sharing holecards, but no evidence has been found for this, and early evidence seems to discard that theory.

Cliffs: how on earth could these bots win so much money in todays tough poker climate when all their stats seem to prove, in your words, that they couldn't be winning players?
.
outfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 12:52 AM   #1091
Jeff W
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 9,556
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Has anyone looked at the low stakes HU games to see if there are any suspicious correlated play patterns there?
Jeff W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 01:42 AM   #1092
PURPLEPILS99
newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 16
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by YaBoyINthe604 View Post
This doesn't mean or prove anything, all this can confirm is that you are not able to cash out. Stars have proven they are incompetent and untrustworthy! over the botting issue and I would be surprised if any of the botters left more than $5000 in their accounts at anytime.
It means that they literally stopped cash outs for anyone who plays those stakes on a regular basis to make sure no one cashes out any more money until they're proven innocent... Stars may not have dealt/been dealing with this in the best way possible but they're not that dumb. The suspected accounts are obviously not being allowed to cash out and if you think otherwise then ur not too bright.
PURPLEPILS99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 02:01 AM   #1093
PURPLEPILS99
newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 16
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Also as for Ivanhoe's question about the bots being the biggest winners. Let's be honest here 50c/1$ and 1$/2$ PLO are not difficult games to beat. I don't know who said that they shouldn't be winning players because that's pretty obviously not the case as you can see by their graphs.

They play hyper aggressive and takes shots at every pot whenever there's any weakness shown. They are hard to play against and I'm sure just absolutely destroy fish and weak regs.

The fact of the matter is that they don't make many post flop errors and put a lot of pressure on people = winning poker. It would be a different story if they were 1 or 2 tabling bigger games they probably wouldn't make any money. This is why they're all playing millions of hands at smaller stakes against much weaker opponents and clearly have made more than enough doing so. I have played hundreds of thousands of hands against them and other than the occasional completely ******ed hands they play ( I'm assuming because of the person taking over for the bot) they all just play really solid aggressive winning poker.

That being said, I'm up the most against Fedor than anyone else I've played against by more than double.
#SaveFedor?

Last edited by PURPLEPILS99; 06-17-2015 at 02:13 AM.
PURPLEPILS99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 02:16 AM   #1094
kelnel
veteran
 
kelnel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: i <3 girafes
Posts: 2,717
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
Please read it all guys. Lets move on to Party. I believe the guys running the same bot over there are:

ADIDASex
calmeguru
hornet014
fierceberserk
Pivovich
Ravvinn
suxyourphone
Played lots with some of those accounts on party at 5/10. They have been around for a long time. At least 2 years. Plus who knows how many they are as you can change your sn on party (right?).

I havnt played on party in over a year. 5/10 only:






Tell me if you need hands.
kelnel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 02:36 AM   #1095
Lemay002
veteran
 
Lemay002's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere Magical
Posts: 3,018
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff W View Post
Has anyone looked at the low stakes HU games to see if there are any suspicious correlated play patterns there?
Doupt theres anything on stars, atleast in the zooms.
Lemay002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 02:58 AM   #1096
Schwein
centurion
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Numbers dont lie
Posts: 115
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Appendix to my post with Party screen names, managed to search them on PTR premium. Surprised to see they are all Russian, or maybe not that surprised after all.




EDIT:

Once again please note that different sites/software (PT4.HEM2,RPTR,PTR) calculate stuff in a different way. Some stats have the same definition everywhere but some dont. I never compare RPTR vs HEM or HEM vs PT4 etc. Always same source for all screenshots in one post/graph/spreadsheet.

Last edited by Schwein; 06-17-2015 at 03:24 AM.
Schwein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 03:12 AM   #1097
Dandan160808
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 135
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

No ones looked at anything less than $1/2 - $3/6 from $200-1000. It has been talked about and a few posts about a couple accounts doing similar things on PLO 50.
I'm sure it goes all the way down but it's Schwein taking on a massive task as it is and doing a good job.
The title of this thread is accross all poker sites. Maybe massive bot ring on pokerstars is a little too hard when they have millions of players and we are dealing with a known quantity of 27 Bots. The massive part I assume is the $4.3m that's been allegedly scammed from these alleged bots. As for suspending cashouts is a good thing but is affecting a few known legit regs like PurpleK. Makes more sense to ban those suspected of playing altogether so no more money is added to bots accounts and money allegedly stolen from recs & Regs. Things are happening now in the background at stars and let's wait on their news.
Dandan160808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 03:17 AM   #1098
Dandan160808
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 135
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

There's been a few questions on this thread of "why not play higher for these alleged bots"
1} your average $10/20 to $200/400 reg would complain a lot sooner and a lot being pros or even pokerstars sponsored players would work this out a lot quicker. No Bot would be stupid enough to try their luck at winning 30 buyins on day one and continue with a graph like Mount Everest.
Dandan160808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 03:22 AM   #1099
Dandan160808
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 135
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
Appendix to my post with Party screen names, managed to search them on PTR premium. Surprised to see they are all Russian, or maybe not that surprised after all.






So for anyone from Russia claiming they don't speak English, here's the translation from my time in Russia.

Приложение к моему сообщению с псевдонимами партии, удалось найти их на PTR премии. Удивленный, чтобы увидеть все они России, или, может быть, не то, что удивился после всех
Dandan160808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 03:35 AM   #1100
Schwein
centurion
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Numbers dont lie
Posts: 115
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
@Schwein, plz tell me that you are in touch with PS...
Since the 9th of June. I have shared some stuff with them exclusively and they are welcome to read anything I post here.

I am sure they are working on it, but I guess big companies tend to move slower then freelancers and they need a higher burden of proof.
Schwein is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive