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Old 06-16-2015, 08:10 AM   #1051
freewilly12
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Greg20 View Post
But who says we shouldn't be compensated in full? The reality however is that Stars is safest and gives tiny refunds while other sites are less safe and mostly don't give any refunds. For that reasons going somewhere else doesn't seems too smart.
You implied that.
We know Stars is the safest place to play but not safe enough right now.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:38 AM   #1052
Schwein
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
PTR's bb are wrong. double the bb to get real bb/100..

20bb/100 at 200nl over 128k hands..



how does a guy with so much money still sit at 50plo?





PTR's stats are not as accurate as russian PTR
Those are all correctly identified. I found them as well when checking the Party HH files and 30+ stats are matching. There are 4 more, will post in the evening.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:10 AM   #1053
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Stars has frozen accounts in the past without much evidence at all for minor things compared to this... but the alleged cheaters get to keep playing with the public watching it?
Maybe they let them cash out too? If not, what keeps them from chip dumping? We should keep track who the suspects lose to somewhere between OP & till they disappear...

For the slim chance they are proven innocent they could always be compensated so I have no idea how Stars can let this go on.

Also no official reply from Stars so far.

They should be firing a lot more people (if that is even true) but i'm afraid there might not be enough left to "run" the company.

Stars profiting off cheaters is the biggest joke of all. We definitely have to push and insist on a change.
They should be compensating in full in this case because they've been that horrible in handling this.

Also if you can be bothered, I got cheated out of approx 57k in 2012:
2+2 thread + post / p5's thread

You can see Stars security team being helpless + Stars twisting my words in order to compensate us with $0.

I'll contact them later and ask if they think it's ok that they have profited by me getting cheated on their site. Hadn't even thought of that until this thread, good times
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:34 AM   #1054
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I mean its crazy how Stars still didn't make any public statement at this point saying they do everything they can to fix that. And I still wonder how the security team can let 5 guys playing with exactly the same stats and detecting nothing .....

And now what we have to wait they froze their accounts and pay us back with the remaining fund on the cheater account which should represent below 10% of what they really took from us (could be mid 5 figures for me over last year).

Is there a way to suit the cheaters or the room in this case if we are not happy with the result?
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:01 AM   #1055
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Seregaxx View Post
Alexo18, you want a refund from PS, but are you sure, that your stats are unique?
I don't have such a plenty of time like Schwein here, but I found few accounts that have a very close stats to your. I'm just going to explore some larger DB to make sure of my assumption.
How do you explain that 20/24 of your stats are within a 5% interval compared to 3 of the already banned accounts (randomly selected)?
And yes, it is 20/24 for ALL 3 on identical parameters - mostly postflop. It must be some magical calculations you have access to.....

To make this even worse, how do you explain that 16-17 of the stats against the same banned bots are within a 2% interval (randomly selected)?

I have compared 3 mid/highstakes regs with similar style (I included Alexo for your sake) to the Seregaxx-account - AND the banned bots. There are obviusly some similarities on certain parameters, but not even close to be suspicius, as there are faceup differences in major areas.

I don't know how the creator(s) tweaked your account to play a more looseaggro style preflop compared to the other accounts (reg tables does a lot, I guess), but something surely is shady. This time you tried a polarized bluff and got called. Everytime your are posting I'm getting even more convinced. In contary to you data don't lie.
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:44 AM   #1056
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Plw View Post
I mean its crazy how Stars still didn't make any public statement at this point saying they do everything they can to fix that. And I still wonder how the security team can let 5 guys playing with exactly the same stats and detecting nothing .....
Maybe they just let them play long enough for them to not have identical stats anymore. Problem solved...
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:01 AM   #1057
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Maybe they just let them play long enough for them to not have identical stats anymore. Problem solved...
You got it backwards - with similar playing styles (i.e. nearly identical coding & parameters), you have to let them go the long mile for stats to converge to the same value. With perfectly identical style, playing just 10k hands might not be enough to spot 2 twin bots (since you're checking 20-30 different stats), whereas you can most probably spot them after say 50k hands (or at least you can flag them and further investigate and scrutinize).

And all that actually is (yet more) evidence for PS's incompetence, since these cloned bots played millions of hands between them. "State of the art cheating detection system"..
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:09 AM   #1058
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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You got it backwards - with similar playing styles (i.e. nearly identical coding & parameters), you have to let them go the long mile for stats to converge to the same value. With perfectly identical style, playing just 10k hands might not be enough to spot 2 twin bots (since you're checking 20-30 different stats), whereas you can most probably spot them after say 50k hands (or at least you can flag them and further investigate and scrutinize).

And all that actually is (yet more) evidence for PS's incompetence, since these cloned bots played millions of hands between them. "State of the art cheating detection system"..
They started doing things differently recently.
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:44 AM   #1059
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

We still have no interim report or answers from stars? I get told from moderator that I'm basically not contributing to discussion with some posts? So any one else here calling stars all the names under the sun can post. Where as I'm calling out the bots with more media exposure if we hear zero from stars. It's obviously not freedom of speech when perhaps you have ps pros leant on asking 2+2 to delete posts that critisise stars for allowing the biggest offenders to carry on playing! I mean you don't arrest an armed robber caught In the act and let him go while investigating him so why are these accounts still playing?
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:53 AM   #1060
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Dan there are threads to post your opinion on PS. This one is about bots.

Last edited by centebakkie; 06-16-2015 at 12:11 PM. Reason: I'm small stakes player, apologies if I'm not allowed to post in PLO high stakes.
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:03 PM   #1061
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Stars is in contact with the main investigators. That was confirmed several time itt. They are on it.

What do you nvg rigtards want?! Stars going to every mediaoutlet in the world telling them to inform the people that there are bots? So that even teh last recreational stops playing online altogether?
Or posting a message when the client starts? "Attention players, our client is overrun by russian pokerrobots but please stay with us, your money is safe"


Teh stupidity of u guys is strong. Almoast nvg or zoo strong
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:10 PM   #1062
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Stars is in contact with the main investigators. That was confirmed several time itt. They are on it.

What do you nvg rigtards want?! Stars going to every mediaoutlet in the world telling them to inform the people that there are bots? So that even teh last recreational stops playing online altogether?
Or posting a message when the client starts? "Attention players, our client is overrun by russian pokerrobots but please stay with us, your money is safe"


Teh stupidity of u guys is strong. Almoast nvg or zoo strong
I guess you can read but not comprehend?

Accs should have been frozen a LONG time ago. Statement from Stars on 2+2 regarding this etc.
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:30 PM   #1063
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Yes I understand this is all about bots and I know and understand the whole concept of them. I have written what I know about them in previous posts but it seems the profiteers who are winning players don't care about those who have lost money to these bots! It's keep silent for those in huge profit and for those who have lost thousands it's "what is happening with stars right now and even an interim reply would stop gossip mongering. A few facts from stars would be nice in an update but so far just personal emails. With stars total silence then most of these threads are turning in to all sorts of accusations. I get the feeling national media is not the way yet so anyone else care to tell us what they think of this bot situation which is the point I've been talking about in all my posts. "What's the title of this thread"? I've given technical input and my own thoughts and if I'm spoiling some rich guys crushing session whilst others have lost a few million to bots then that's too bad.
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:39 PM   #1064
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

what are the screennames of the bots that are still playing on stars?
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:42 PM   #1065
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Can confirm they are not able to cash out. I requested a cash out and they did not let me while they were "investigating me" since i play those games all day every day. So clearly they are not able to cashout since they are the ones who are actually being investigated.
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:30 PM   #1066
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by TimStone View Post
Stars is in contact with the main investigators. That was confirmed several time itt. They are on it.

What do you nvg rigtards want?! Stars going to every mediaoutlet in the world telling them to inform the people that there are bots? So that even teh last recreational stops playing online altogether?
Or posting a message when the client starts? "Attention players, our client is overrun by russian pokerrobots but please stay with us, your money is safe"


Teh stupidity of u guys is strong. Almoast nvg or zoo strong
They have locked accounts for way, way, way less in the past. Seems prudent, no?
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:54 PM   #1067
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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The past form for the UKGC on issues of money laundering or faulty software has been that the operator should not be seen to have made a profit from the relevant play - whether that is a criminal spending big sums or a faulty RTP on a slot machine. I would expect the same principle to apply here which would mean rake paid by the bots used to compensate players.
Can they claim investigation costs to reduce the amount paid to players do you know?
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:11 PM   #1068
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Funny enough today PS fires a bunch of staff, game integrity and a lot other positions. Not because theyre failing at their job but to reduce costs. So we can deff expect PS to do worse than what theyre doing right now
If this is real, and the job cuts are described as "natural wastage" or some BS like that, there's gonna be a massive outbreak of WTFs. Firing game integrity staff in the middle of the biggest crisis in game integrity for years sounds completely insane. What in the bleeding **** is going on? Is Dmitry still onboard?

The suspected bot accounts simply have to be frozen. It's the only way to restore faith in the system, isn't it?
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:19 PM   #1069
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Did you notice paterns is Bots opening size ? Did they play Heads up (a bit or not at all) ?
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:25 PM   #1070
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by PURPLEPILS99 View Post
Can confirm they are not able to cash out. I requested a cash out and they did not let me while they were "investigating me" since i play those games all day every day. So clearly they are not able to cashout since they are the ones who are actually being investigated.

You're not a bot!! I know that as does everyone else who plays you. You're Canadian right? I know you're a good player and Schwein et Al have not mentioned you in any way apart from over a week ago someone brought your name up. I'm glad they have stopped cashouts for alleged bots and that's a good step. but why not suspend those 27 on Shweins list plus more I think as he was asked not to publish anymore players here as to not to slander them. I've heard 16 have been banned. So progress at last and wait and see what else happens with Bot Gate!
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:49 PM   #1071
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Some stuff from the HEM. The initial list in the OP was prepared based on similarities between RPTR accounts and the calculated distance between account pairs.

I wanted to prove additionally that its not a bunch of random aggro accounts and that why I started to look for stats which are uncommon for aggro regulars and uncommon in general.

The following screens are prepared based on a large DB from 1 October 2014 to 1 January 2015. The accounts in question tend to perform an aggressive action on flop and turn with the same frequency and it tends to be over 15% for all 4 stats.

All the accounts in question have the same 3bet as squeeze, I have first described it here https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=101
It makes no sense to have 3bet=sqz when playing 100bb+, winning players very rarely play like this and its uncommon for aggressive players as well. So its not like 3bet=sqz is some secret formula that increases the winrate.

All the accounts had the BB Agg = Overall Agg, once again it makes no sense, winning players tend to have much lower BB Agg then overall aggression (they range is wider and weaker in BB).

Colour coded the similarities for the alias, and I am posting 4 screenshots for individual accounts that had the most hands in that DB. The numbers might very a bit, because its just 50-100k samples.



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Old 06-16-2015, 05:08 PM   #1072
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

3bet and Squeeze% quite different to the other 3 accounts for sergeaxx but all other stats very similar.
Yes sergeaxx has a 25% higher difference in these areas only where as under 5% difference accross the board? It makes no sense as no reg would play like this.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:22 PM   #1073
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Just a thought here. It seems as if these accounts aren't holecard sharing with each other, that would be an easy way to get caught. That doesn't mean that hackers don't have screen capture capabilities on legitimate players in their normal games. Detection would not be easy, and it would explain the bots ability to play hands so aggressively and so +ev.

can this be tested schwein?
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:26 PM   #1074
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

If stars could give someone all the holecards(like on bovada) it would be easy to see if the bots do random ******ed bluff that make no sense.

I was linked there today:
http://www.clubpoker.net/forum-poker...opoker-unibet/

bots on french sites going nuts with total trash hands. Calling off 8 high for their whole stack.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:29 PM   #1075
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

News of possible banned software on stars due in a week.
Off the back of some considerable upset amidst the community over a game theory optimal (GTO) decision making program being allowed to operate on PokerStars, Poker Room Manager at the world’s largest site Steve Day has announced it’s now “strongly considering” changing its current policy where third-party software is concerned.

The contentious program was built by London based grinder ‘skier_5’, and by offering players game theory optimal decisions without assuming any control, is said to be able to turn average or good players into world class contenders.

“A developer recently shared new software with us for evaluation and we informed him that the software was allowable. The decision was based around the premise that static reference material that does not change depending on action in the hand, or any other variable, is permitted. This rule was initially designed some years ago so that Nash charts and other similar documents would be permitted to be referenced while playing.”

“The software we reviewed allows quick and precise reference to a large number of static charts that cover most or all pre-flop situations. While within our current rules, this software goes beyond the level of assistance we want to see software providing players in our online poker room.”

“As a result, we are strongly considering changing our current policies.”

If this action was indeed to be taken, using information such as Nash Charts or tools like Poker Tracker 4 and Hold’em Manager 2 would still be permitted; but skier_5’s controversial software, along with a fairly long provisional list of others, would potentially be out of commission:

• SessionLord’s Pre-flop Chart
• Holy Grail of Poker
• Poker Academy
• HEM2’s LeakBuster
• FlopZilla
• Odds Oracle
• PokerStove
• NoteCaddy
• PT4’s Leak Tracker

The decision will be pending for the next week or so before we hear any further official statements on the matter, and in the meantime members over on the forums of 2+2 have been invited to provide feedback on the idea.

So far the majority appears to be heavily in favour of the proposed ban, but PokerStars did also state it would be “more swayed” by quality reasoning than an opinion’s “sheer popularity” in the thread.
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