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Old 06-15-2015, 06:27 PM   #1026
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
Hey Samanta, do you know BOOTTLEGGER? He suddenly stopped playing on Stars in February along with few other people on my list?



I suppose you never heard of him and work alone on your game just like seregaxx. Could it be that great minds think alike and two PLO200 crushers simply have to come up with the same strategy even when working independently and without any software?

I am sure you must have noticed that Fedor and seregaxx play exactly like you do, after all they are your 2 most frequent opponents according to the PTR screenshot someone posted. Have you ever wondered how they manage to have exactly the same postflop stats as you do?

EDIT:

The guy doing all the extra hands DBs is almost finished and I will soon post a lot more stats from HEM that are identical for active accounts from my list. Nothing fancy, basic stats from large samples. Stay tuned.
Here are my stats from my database:


My post here keep getting deleted...
Schwain is faking numbers of my stats,
My friends, I'm done here.
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:27 PM   #1027
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by urubu222 View Post
i think theres 2 big reasons bots won a lot:

1- nobody knew they were bots. if everyone knew they were bots, they wouldn't win like they did. its a lot diference play vs a bot when you know its a bot, than when you are sure its a human playing . history/metgame plays a lot when you multitabling same guys everyday .

you are lost when you play vs a bot, being sure its a human . but you have lots of chances to beat the same bot, when you know its a bot .

2- they don't tilt .
scrubbyz and urubu tilt lots
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:42 PM   #1028
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Friend View Post
Here are my stats from my database:


My post here keep getting deleted...
Schwain is faking numbers of my stats,
My friends, I'm done here.
I am not faking anything. I took the numbers from the current RPTR screenshots. Anyone with access can confirm. I used the same source for everyone when comparing data. I never compared stats from DB vs stats from RPTR. It was always RPTR stats vs RPTR stats, or DB stats vs DB stats.

EDIT: I dont know how RPTR calculates their stats, but no matter how their do it, they do it the same way for everyone. We arent talking about absolute values but about the difference and the difference happens to be really small for Samanta and BOOTTLEGGER.

Last edited by Schwein; 06-15-2015 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:45 PM   #1029
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I've been lurking in this thread so far, just want to say big thanks to Schwein for your work.

I played a ton against a few of these guys and lost quite a bit to some of them..

I really hope stars will deal with this stuff in a somewhat appropriate manner. Agree with alexo at this point, we pay a **** load of rake for "integrity". where's the "integrity" now? I'm fine with paying rake for that, but if things go wrong, where's the "integrity"?


I really like playing there but if they end up with "ok some guys cheated have 39$" for the 5k+(whatever) damage they've done I'm done with stars and find some other sites to play.
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:51 PM   #1030
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

But you do know that bots and/or collusion are present on different sites as well? So the only difference is that you won't even get that $39.
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Old 06-15-2015, 07:04 PM   #1031
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Well, the fact of the matter is that plo games 200 and below are still fairly soft (in terms of overall player skill, dont wana start a rake discussion here or whatever), so accounts who are able to play ridiculous number of hands and never go on tilt will prey on the recs and weaker regs thus destroying the overall economy.

Even the bosses of plo5k+ should be concerned because of this fact even tho these bots obviously wont have a chance against them.
I am admittedly not a PLO expert,but I know a thing or two about poker in general,but anyways I'll give my humble opinion about the botters playing the levels they do.

Of course,the higher the stakes,the higher the skill level.I still think there might be a chance,that bots could at least be 'in match' against the better players.If not in 2015,then in the very near future.Just take Claudico for example.

If I was a botter myself I'd concider what is the best and safest way to exploit the system and make as much out of it as I can?Obviously if the stakes are higher,the skill differences are much lower (usually),so in plo the swings any player will experience are way bigger,even BI wise,even $ wise.
We all know its fairly common in plo,even for the very best players to have 20-30bi mini downswings in a couple of days.That 20-30 buyins are 4-6k at 200,but it would be 40-60k at 10/20...(notice,im not even talking about really high stakes)
Keeping that much money in an account,that could become suspicious ANY time would be dumb i guess.
So the reward might be high if the bot can compete,run good and stay under the radar at higher stakes,but there are many significantly higher risks to consider as well.

Also,higher stakes players tend to be smarter (again,usually),so the chances of getting exposed earlier are much higher again.There are multiple reasons for this,not just players being smarter,they are usually more suspicious to WHO are they playing as well.Just take a popular example of Isildur1.I am very sure the players he played at the time all knew he was as soon as he started crushing really high.Its just the nature of the people who play those limits,and the nature of he environment they live and play in...
Yet,the public was eagerly awaiting for the revelation of the mystical crusher.
Heck,there might be ppl who play plo100/200 and don't give a .... if they are playing a bot,they just want a game to play in.I doubt we could find a high stakes player who thinks like this.(No offence to smaller stakes rec's obv.)

The player pool at higher stakes is obviously way more shallow,and if u are a botter my educated guess is,that u would want to be as anonymous,as you can be.If a new player arrives in a relatively small pool,everyone gets suspicious,hoping he/she might be a fish or preferably a whale,but if said player turns out to be a crusher,people will start asking questions like "who is this new guy?" "anyone knows him?".So yeah...thats how it works.Naturally.

But a lot better in a much bigger pool at the micros or midstakes,where people just grind out their bread,rarely asking these questions.As a botter you need a safe environment to hide in.

So concidering all the above,i personally think that the safest way to run a winning bot,and print money is running it at the midstakes.
Also worth to mention that to my knowledge in Russia,or other Eastern-Euro countries if u can make 50-100k a year u are basically a high roller of life there.

Long post sorry,just 1 last thing to add:

"We are Poker"

Last edited by MrsLifetilt; 06-15-2015 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 07:31 PM   #1032
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by apo5tol View Post
I have no idea how to group them, so i'll just list the main ones I could find in VsPlayer tab of HM2
FedorZaysev +3879
Samanta81 +4051
4somniare +802
seregaxx -679 (very few hands as i dont think he plays zoom)
emper0r92 +248(also very few hands)
IpushmyPrius -785
SuSaaNiN -1949
SSELrive +1440
IMissFender -160
RockfellaJ +1735 (few hands)

I might've played some hands against others on the list, but their names dont ring a bell.
Anyways, not sure why it matters.
Doesn't matter beyond my curiosity, I play on anonymous sites and live cash so beyond my concern that they are crushing fish is my concern if they are crushing me.
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Old 06-15-2015, 07:32 PM   #1033
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by scrubbyz View Post
scrubbyz and urubu tilt lots
makes sense, you would wan't to stay under the radar and not win too much, best is break even before rb, then the site will not mind and not flag you.
Best tilt away excess money, a good opportunity to appear human.
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Old 06-15-2015, 07:43 PM   #1034
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Greg20 View Post
But you do know that bots and/or collusion are present on different sites as well? So the only difference is that you won't even get that $39.
This is a bad argument.

The fact that other sites/networks don't give refunds from cheating doesn't mean we shouldn't be compensated for the damages in full.

Tiny refund is more like an insult now when we have an estimate of the total damage.
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Old 06-15-2015, 07:48 PM   #1035
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Funny enough today PS fires a bunch of staff, game integrity and a lot other positions. Not because theyre failing at their job but to reduce costs. So we can deff expect PS to do worse than what theyre doing right now
Any link for this?
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Old 06-15-2015, 08:05 PM   #1036
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by freewilly12 View Post
The fact that other sites/networks don't give refunds from cheating doesn't mean we shouldn't be compensated for the damages in full.
But who says we shouldn't be compensated in full? The reality however is that Stars is safest and gives tiny refunds while other sites are less safe and mostly don't give any refunds. For that reasons going somewhere else doesn't seems too smart.
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Old 06-15-2015, 08:18 PM   #1037
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Any link for this?
+1

Are u sure that's why they left? You don't "fire" people to reduce costs.... Unless u want employment lawyers up ur a**
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Old 06-15-2015, 08:40 PM   #1038
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Source?

Are we talking redudancies?? Restructure?? Or just plain fired.... in relation to this??
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:28 PM   #1039
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I don't know if anyone mentioned partypoker. But take a look at PTR at suxyourphone and fierceberserk (definitely bots), they even started to play on the same date/started winning (more) on the same date.

And probably hornet014 is a bot too
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Old 06-15-2015, 10:18 PM   #1040
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Theyre saying restructure*, no link, friend of mine works at PS and he called me today asking if I knew if somebody was hiring, they told them whoever wanted to stay could stay, but at lower paycheck(they would liquidate them tho)
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:11 PM   #1041
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by littleolli View Post
I don't know if anyone mentioned partypoker. But take a look at PTR at suxyourphone and fierceberserk (definitely bots), they even started to play on the same date/started winning (more) on the same date.

And probably hornet014 is a bot too
PTR's bb are wrong. double the bb to get real bb/100..

20bb/100 at 200nl over 128k hands..



how does a guy with so much money still sit at 50plo?





PTR's stats are not as accurate as russian PTR
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:30 AM   #1042
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Alexo18, you want a refund from PS, but are you sure, that your stats are unique?
I don't have such a plenty of time like Schwein here, but I found few accounts that have a very close stats to your. I'm just going to explore some larger DB to make sure of my assumption.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:45 AM   #1043
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Seregaxx View Post
Alexo18, you want a refund from PS, but are you sure, that your stats are unique?
I don't have such a plenty of time like Schwein here, but I found few accounts that have a very close stats to your. I'm just going to explore some larger DB to make sure of my assumption.
1.- I want PS to make refunds that include what is raked during the cheats + full amount of what is stolen. Not only the pennies that are frozen.

2.- Ive never said my stats are unique. Edited(added words) : but pretty sure that I belong to the "nornal" distribution of players with some similar stats.

3.- I havent compared my stats with other bots or people as Schwein has , but if you or anyone thinks something weird might go on with my account im willing to provide my db to someone trustworthy. Clearly not you.

3.- Also maybe Schwein can explain you how having SOME stats close to another player stats is really different to what is going on with these accounts.

Edited: added words

Last edited by alexo18; 06-16-2015 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:24 AM   #1044
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I have no knowledge about the British law concerning gambling & cheating, but considering the sums (in the millions), the span in time (years) and the extent (tens of bots), I imagine there could be some serious heat coming PS's way from a legal point of view, let alone the awful publicity (and in this case "even bad publicity is good publicity" really doesn't apply). So I say go with it, Dan, if there's really no reaction from the powers that be. I play NL exclusively but I can't imagine this is going on just in the PLO games, so I'm sure it applies to NL games as well.

Yeah, this would be bad for players too, to some extent, but I say fk that.. Keeping the s.hit under the rug indefinitely and "compensating" players with change after literally millions have been stolen it's just pathetic. If PS gets hit hard, then tough luck.. Maybe that's what is needed for them to really step up their game, ffs.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:50 AM   #1045
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

The scary and very telling part of this whole situation is, that a player with his own database and investigation got the ball rolling, and the game integrity team of Stars with access to all hands and stats from each player were not able (or willing) to do that.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:00 AM   #1046
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

going to newspaper has to be one of the most ******ed things you can do. Wtf do you think its going to do? Its going to be pretty obv stars is working pretty **** hard over this. Theyre not just magically going to invent some magical bot detection system because you went to the papers. All it will do will reduce the fish at stars.

the only thing you should be doing is debating/complaining about is the % of certainty they need to ban an account for botting/sw & debate how to stop something like it in the future imo.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:12 AM   #1047
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Seregaxx View Post
Alexo18, you want a refund from PS, but are you sure, that your stats are unique?
I don't have such a plenty of time like Schwein here, but I found few accounts that have a very close stats to your. I'm just going to explore some larger DB to make sure of my assumption.
SereGaXX, nothing will clear you faster than recording a video similar to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwDLbceGEY4

where we can see you and the screen at the same time. Should take only a couple of minutes of your time.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:20 AM   #1048
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I don't understand why people are so eager to put this in any kind of nationwide news paper. As soon as you have just a little bit insight into any topic you will just ragequit reading the articles in them as the writers usually don't know the least about the topic they're writing about and thus their articles are full of errors. So do you really want them to blow this topic out of proportion (I know, it will be hard given the dimensions of this but I'm 100% positive they will manage to do so).
And I don't see that Stars isn't moving at all, they're not sharing the results of their investigations in this thread but in this situation noone would as it would end in a witch hunt as seen on numerous previous pages where perfectly legit grinders were accused of being bots.
Plus: The poker players know about it as it has been published on any relevant poker related news site and I'm sure it's been talked about in any home game or casino already. The only thing you would achieve by this is to bring online poker to the politicians again and it will end in even more segregation/prohibition.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:23 AM   #1049
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by devera View Post
I have no knowledge about the British law concerning gambling & cheating, but considering the sums (in the millions), the span in time (years) and the extent (tens of bots), I imagine there could be some serious heat coming PS's way from a legal point of view, let alone the awful publicity (and in this case "even bad publicity is good publicity" really doesn't apply). So I say go with it, Dan, if there's really no reaction from the powers that be. I play NL exclusively but I can't imagine this is going on just in the PLO games, so I'm sure it applies to NL games as well.

Yeah, this would be bad for players too, to some extent, but I say fk that.. Keeping the s.hit under the rug indefinitely and "compensating" players with change after literally millions have been stolen it's just pathetic. If PS gets hit hard, then tough luck.. Maybe that's what is needed for them to really step up their game, ffs.
Their licence requires them to report cheating to the UKGC. This would include full name and address details of the accounts frozen, details of the amounts seized, estimates of the total player loss, explanations of how the cheating was detected, what compensation was paid, how that compensation was calculated. What Stars are doing to improve detection and deter cheating yada, yada, yada.

With an episode of this scale it is likely that the UKGC will publish a report on what happened and the lessons learned for the benefit of other sites and to provide openness for players.

I have already raised the case with the UKGC. There has likely already been a lurking regulator reviewing the thread.

The past form for the UKGC on issues of money laundering or faulty software has been that the operator should not be seen to have made a profit from the relevant play - whether that is a criminal spending big sums or a faulty RTP on a slot machine. I would expect the same principle to apply here which would mean rake paid by the bots used to compensate players.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:51 AM   #1050
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Their licence requires them to report cheating to the UKGC. This would include full name and address details of the accounts frozen, details of the amounts seized, estimates of the total player loss, explanations of how the cheating was detected, what compensation was paid, how that compensation was calculated. What Stars are doing to improve detection and deter cheating yada, yada, yada.

With an episode of this scale it is likely that the UKGC will publish a report on what happened and the lessons learned for the benefit of other sites and to provide openness for players.

I have already raised the case with the UKGC. There has likely already been a lurking regulator reviewing the thread.

The past form for the UKGC on issues of money laundering or faulty software has been that the operator should not be seen to have made a profit from the relevant play - whether that is a criminal spending big sums or a faulty RTP on a slot machine. I would expect the same principle to apply here which would mean rake paid by the bots used to compensate players.
Thanks for the detailed reply. This doesn't really looks good on PS then. Which is good

I totally agree this gaining wide visibility in the press and in regulators visor is indeed bad for poker players, but that's simply short term thinking. Yes, maybe there will be some drop in RECs joining in or re-depositing, but would you rather compete with 100 bots at the stake you play?

If the s.hit really hits the fan, while it's bad for us all short term, it cannot be bad long term:
* PS gets their ass seriously kicked and are forced to ramp up their "state of the art multi-million anti-cheating procedures", which we all know how efficient they are
* could raise eyebrows with other online poker platforms, that are currently at least just as vulnerable, and force them to move in the right direction
* when this is cleared, PS could come back with a vengeance and say they now REALLY have some serious anti-cheating platform in place, to detect bots, collusion, illegal software being used etc etc etc. And all this with a renewed OK from the regulators. And then the RECs will, in time, rejoin.
* as a result, we stop losing money to bots & alike (directly or indirectly, via RECs bleeding the money into bots' accounts)

So yeah, it's bad going to the press. But I really think is worse letting PS decide unilaterally how to proceed with this (considering their approach and communication so far), handing over absolutely ridiculous compensation to cheated players and then preserving this status quo and then the cycle repeats. Something needs to be done, since PS doesn't show is willing to do it benevolently.

I mean.. REALLY, how the FK can an entire department created solely for the purpose of detecting cheats and bots let almost 30 bots run for years, while they withdraw millions from their accounts? How can an entire department with complete access to ***** everything be so incompetent and not discover this, while a couple of users manage to do it, with a bit of work (and lots of brains), using the incomplete info that's available? Seriously...

Last edited by devera; 06-16-2015 at 08:01 AM.
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