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Old 06-13-2015, 08:43 AM   #876
freewilly12
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by tokatrain View Post
The most tilting thing is that stars doesn't feel the need to come out and at least make a comment. They know they have us by the balls, they don't even care. How else are we gonna make money.
They have their corporate policy catching ToS-violators and I guess they just see players/posters demanding fast actions as some sort of lynching mob.

I think the evidence is damning enough in this case but looks like they will take their time before they comply with us (if they will).

Maybe to just show they are the ones in charge?

Below the first reply I received from Stars game integrity from seven months ago (after 3 months the 3 players I reported were gone):

Hello xxxx,

Thank you for contacting PokerStars. Your email was escalated to me as a member of the Game Integrity Team.

It would actually be quite difficult for players to identify bots at the tables. To draw an analogy, it would be difficult to distinguish whether a sculpture was made by a human or robot simply by looking at the final sculpture itself. The important information in this example would be to look at what tools were used, how long it took to make the sculpture, and so on. In the bot detection world, this relates to how the account interacts with the PokerStars client, how they input their bets and raises, and so on. Consequently, many of the key identifiers of bot use are largely indistinguishable to end-users such as yourself.

Nevertheless, given that your particular case appears to be a strongly founded investigation, we welcome you to email us with their User IDs, along with the reasons for your suspicion, and we will investigate accordingly.

I look forward to hear from you.

Regards,

xxxxxx.
Game Integrity Team
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Old 06-13-2015, 09:38 AM   #877
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
You are wrong, security methods has to change.
Think about computer security. Many hackers are making viruses,exploits and other things while security expert are fighting them.
By your logic, since hackers will continue, your only chance is give up.
Passing a turing test is not equal to hacking windows 7 by any means. It's not like pokerstars can just fix their program and disable bot this way.

The ultimate Turing test has to include at the very least seeing the player from time to time,talking to him while playing and etc. Anything short than this ultimately will open the door for botters to enter.

For now pokerstars only check if the information coming from their Software passes a simple turing test. (mouse click, short cuts, mouse movement and what not). This really really easy for a botter to beat. If they can manage to build a bot with a decent strategy even if it involved card sharing all the other things are really simple and undetectable if done properly as I stated earlier.
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Old 06-13-2015, 09:54 AM   #878
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Surely a webcam won't fix anything but make it slightly more difficult for botters.

At SSNL we have had 8 big winners mysteriously leave the games (at least 1 from Kazakhstan and I believe the rest were Russian) and we now have between 3-5 regs with almost identical stats in the same games. These regs have been reported by numerous people and stars have consistently said they are legit so a lot of regs suspect that if these are guilty of something then it's software telling them what to do, how would a webcam solve that issue?

Stars posted in internet poker about potentially being stricter on software you can use in-game so I imagine that they also believe that these suspected bots are not bots but just using advanced software.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:11 AM   #879
Dandan160808
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by .isolated View Post
For you conspiracy theorists out there, I think it's EXTREMELY unlikely that Stars is in on it. I base this only on the fact that these guys all started playing before Amaya bought Stars...and I don't want it to be true. Ofc it would make for a juicier story and people aren't happy that they aren't shutdown immediately but that means **** all at this point. Part of me wonders if any will since they weren't taken out late last year when first reported.................Just not enough evidence for them, I guess.

Two out of ten in 36 hours is pretty good imo.

You can rule nothing out but stars would not risk its huge jump in share value almost quadrupling just after going on the Nasdaq 250. Anaya is a very good investment and for dividends for all those who had shared previously or bought them as soon as they were traded the same day on the trading floor. So Amaya is in the $15-20B in net worth now and I have all faith that the CEO wants to keep everything clean and profitable. However in nearly every company I've investigated for large amounts of fraud it is normally employees who are in serious debt or just out right intent on defrauding a business. I hope and do think that all staff are checked before employment like in the police force. I had to have all my finances scrutinised when I worked for them and we had to declare any debt we got in to so we were not tempted by bribery.
I have faith that pokerstars is growing at such a rate it would be economic suicide for them not to do anything or not update us poker players on this alleged bot Ring.

Pokerstars did have an open day on the Isle of Man some time ago and website owners like 2+2 and representatives were all invited plus others that asked to attend so it's a good step they are opening up inside what was once a Fort Knox type building surrounded in secrecy.

My wife is still waiting from Ian Y from pokerstars to update further as to her concerns and a lot of input from myself. My wife Cara has multiple sclerosis and poker keeps her mind occupied whilst I work long hours & half the work I do can be done at home on my or computer system in fraud detection for the solicitors I'm contracted to work for. The integrity manager gave a different response to some I've seen printed and to be fair to Ian he answered every point with acceptance that their is a problem and they are working on it and will also compensate all those affected appropriately. Give them all a chance before deciding on a next move if their is a next move. A $15-$20B does not want their shares dropping through the floor over a list of 27 suspected and pretty much confirmed bots. The loss to us at the PLO mid stakes is moderately put at approx $4,3m which is what should be returned to players on a calculated basis.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:21 AM   #880
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

To check for collusion I believe its better to look at the observed winrate when 2 or more botters were at the same table. If its 1 bot at a table he is playing with 5 random people on average but if there are 2 bots on the table then each one of them is playing with 4 random people and one 7BB winner (the other bot). They should have the observed winrate around 3BB lower when playing with another bot, because we are replacing a random player that has a negative winrate equal to rake in BB with a 7BB winner (another bot).

Shimmy has run preliminary checks on 85k hands sample where the botters played at the same table and they had the observed winrate lower then the usual one and they also ran under EV. So far we have absolutely no reason to believe that collusion took place.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:24 AM   #881
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Hi everybody. My name is Sergei but you know me as seregaxx.

I've spent a lot of time thinking whether to post here or not, but now I see that this topic became somewhat unreal and I am quite tired of endless chatting so I decided to answer you here.

You should understand that no one knows me as well as I do not know anyone here, and my english is quite bad, so introduce yourself (if you think that it is relevant for better comprehension of your posts) and use simple english for me to understand your questions. It took me the whole day to make this post.

I registered my account on Pokerstars long time ago, passed a bunch of verifications and sent all my documents there to confirm my identity and game fairness. I've never had problems here and I am sure that even now I will pass any test Pokerstars would request (no requests so far).

I will try to answer the "hottest" of your questions.

***Why are his stats so similar to the other players' stats?***

I am a winning player and my decision making is based purely on whether this move helps me to win money or not, regardless of my similarity to someone else. I will not conceal the fact that I use certain game calculations which I studied and practiced a lot to make sure I can easily convert gained knowledges into money. I do not coach anyone and I am not interested in revealing how to play the way I do as games are becoming too tough.

***He is sharing his folded cards with someone else to get the advantage.***

I've never heard anything more ******ed. Let's imagine that I collude with anyone else, say Schwein, do you really think that the amount of hands (situations where I could use blocker) with that very "anyone else" on the same table , will determine my winrate? To make the experiment "pure", I estimated how many hands I usually play with the accounts mentioned by Mr Turing Junior (Schwein), and got the following results - not more than 15-20% with winrate TWICE LESS than my average. Can any of you estimate mathematically the advantage of these 4 cards? Are you ready to play 10k hands knowing 4 folded cards, and another 40k hands without this advantage and show my winrate? Lol, surely no.

I offered to play HU but it turned out those players who challenged me had no balls to meet their own challenge. What are you afraid of? Playing HU with you, I can't share my cards with anyone or may be you think that dealer is my henchman as well??? Lol, seriously... those, who believe that you can build your winrate on this, are baboon-like intellectually.

***His stats are not changing for a long time and consist of abnormally high values which are not usual for regs.***

Complete bull****. My strategy depend on the opponent I play and my game knowledge. If the game is the same for the last two years, why should I change my strategy? On the contrary, I need to sharpen the skill not to deviate from the strategy, though it is not often easy if you are in tilt, for instance. You provided some stats here that are higher that 90% while usual bottom-regs show less than 50%.. Do I need to tell you what is the difference between me and a bottom-reg? Winrate ! I am able to win due to me being aggressive in the situations when those respectablel bottom-regs playing not similar wet their pants to bet. ****.. it seems that I started teaching you how to play. Oh, and - yes, I watch videos on RunItOnce, for sure.


And those of you who copypast brainlessly someone else's bull**** without any attempts to review deserve no respect at all. I can understand those who made some calculations and now have doubts in some things. But the majority of those who make posts here did not make any calculations, did not make any reviews but nevertheless accused me of using bot program and now they are pondering over how much should they be compensated from PS (lol, idiots). Are you able to think for yourselves?


And well, I haven't posted here on 2+2 but you, Mr. Turing Junior, could post it using your primary account, no need to create the new one, actually. Or do you have anything to hide? Or may be you have another motives for this post other than reporting these farfetched proves?

Well, I am done with this post and ready to answer any valid questions.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:29 AM   #882
freewilly12
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Dandan160808 View Post
So Amaya is in the $15-20B in net worth now and I have all faith that the CEO wants to keep everything clean and profitable..
Am I missing something?
Amayas market cap is 4.3B currently. How you know it will quadruple?

Last edited by freewilly12; 06-13-2015 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:41 AM   #883
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Wow so 24hrs ago Sergio could not piece 2 english words together at the tables(his account holder).

Today he took a whole day to write a complete post.

Isnt this proof enough? We have the bot creator speaking now and yesterday we had the degen russian running it while the creator was busy fighting back against all of what is happening.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:44 AM   #884
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
Wow so 24hrs ago Sergio could not piece 2 english words together at the tables(his account holder).

Today he took a whole day to write a complete post.

Isnt this proof enough? We have the bot creator speaking now and yesterday we had the degen russian running it while the creator was busy fighting back against all of what is happening.
no, to be fair he said he was going to have what he wanted to convey translated. seems to me he had the first half translated but wrote the rest himself though. either way it's not proof of anything...
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:48 AM   #885
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

@Seregaxx, any idea why so many other russian players have such similar stats? Do you study or talk with any of the other suspected bots?

thanks for posting
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:01 PM   #886
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Hi Sergei,

are you able to cash out from your Stars account right now?
Or did Stars block that option?
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:25 PM   #887
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Good job on posting in this thread Seregaxx. Not posting made you look guilty.
Let's not forget Seregaxx has a very unusual playing style, but that doesn't make him a bot for sure.
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:39 PM   #888
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seregaxx View Post
Hi everybody. My name is Sergei but you know me as seregaxx.

I've spent a lot of time thinking whether to post here or not, but now I see that this topic became somewhat unreal and I am quite tired of endless chatting so I decided to answer you here.

You should understand that no one knows me as well as I do not know anyone here, and my english is quite bad, so introduce yourself (if you think that it is relevant for better comprehension of your posts) and use simple english for me to understand your questions. It took me the whole day to make this post.

I registered my account on Pokerstars long time ago, passed a bunch of verifications and sent all my documents there to confirm my identity and game fairness. I've never had problems here and I am sure that even now I will pass any test Pokerstars would request (no requests so far).

I will try to answer the "hottest" of your questions.

***Why are his stats so similar to the other players' stats?***

I am a winning player and my decision making is based purely on whether this move helps me to win money or not, regardless of my similarity to someone else. I will not conceal the fact that I use certain game calculations which I studied and practiced a lot to make sure I can easily convert gained knowledges into money. I do not coach anyone and I am not interested in revealing how to play the way I do as games are becoming too tough.

***He is sharing his folded cards with someone else to get the advantage.***

I've never heard anything more ******ed. Let's imagine that I collude with anyone else, say Schwein, do you really think that the amount of hands (situations where I could use blocker) with that very "anyone else" on the same table , will determine my winrate? To make the experiment "pure", I estimated how many hands I usually play with the accounts mentioned by Mr Turing Junior (Schwein), and got the following results - not more than 15-20% with winrate TWICE LESS than my average. Can any of you estimate mathematically the advantage of these 4 cards? Are you ready to play 10k hands knowing 4 folded cards, and another 40k hands without this advantage and show my winrate? Lol, surely no.

I offered to play HU but it turned out those players who challenged me had no balls to meet their own challenge. What are you afraid of? Playing HU with you, I can't share my cards with anyone or may be you think that dealer is my henchman as well??? Lol, seriously... those, who believe that you can build your winrate on this, are baboon-like intellectually.

***His stats are not changing for a long time and consist of abnormally high values which are not usual for regs.***

Complete bull****. My strategy depend on the opponent I play and my game knowledge. If the game is the same for the last two years, why should I change my strategy? On the contrary, I need to sharpen the skill not to deviate from the strategy, though it is not often easy if you are in tilt, for instance. You provided some stats here that are higher that 90% while usual bottom-regs show less than 50%.. Do I need to tell you what is the difference between me and a bottom-reg? Winrate ! I am able to win due to me being aggressive in the situations when those respectablel bottom-regs playing not similar wet their pants to bet. ****.. it seems that I started teaching you how to play. Oh, and - yes, I watch videos on RunItOnce, for sure.


And those of you who copypast brainlessly someone else's bull**** without any attempts to review deserve no respect at all. I can understand those who made some calculations and now have doubts in some things. But the majority of those who make posts here did not make any calculations, did not make any reviews but nevertheless accused me of using bot program and now they are pondering over how much should they be compensated from PS (lol, idiots). Are you able to think for yourselves?


And well, I haven't posted here on 2+2 but you, Mr. Turing Junior, could post it using your primary account, no need to create the new one, actually. Or do you have anything to hide? Or may be you have another motives for this post other than reporting these farfetched proves?

Well, I am done with this post and ready to answer any valid questions.
Hi Sergei, really appreciate you took your time to come and post here. Unfortunately you didnt provide any explanation on why your stats are so similar to the other 26 accounts. I see that you wrote you are working on your game, I know that, I dont think anyone questions this.

Similar stats : There is a group of 27 players that has all the 21 postflop stats from RPTR identical, or to put a bit different there are 432 account pairs when comparing the 27 accounts with each other. Me and my associates couldnt find a single pair outside your group that would be that similar and we tried really hard.

Collusion: I have never accused you and your friends of collusion and to be honest I dont think you do that. https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=880

The 90%+ stat: Players come in all shapes and sizes, your 27 account group isnt the most aggressive one out there, some guys are way more aggro so its not like others dont have the guts to be aggro enough in that spot. I have run queries on a DB with 10k+ screennames and the 90%+ stat is shared only by 11 accounts and 10/11 happen to be part of the 27 account group that is now listed in my OP.

If I could ask you questions those would be.

1. Why are the 21 RPTR postflop stats identical for those 27 accounts (432 pairs) when there isnt any other pair of account playing PLO that would be so similar. Screenshot for some of the still active ones compared to 2 banned ones.


2. What is your connection to the 26 other guys, do you know each other? Did someone provide you with the same software?

3. Why do all the accounts from my OP list have (BB Agg/Agg)*(3bet/sqz)>0.8 when almost no other accounts have it like this?

4. Why did the redline start to fall for all of you guys at the same moment after rising steadily before?

5. Why did you guys change your BB defend so much at the same?

6. Why are all of you performing an aggresive (c/r or raise cbet) action on flop with the same frequency?

7. Will you provide the software that tells you every single decision postflop to PokerStars for review?

I have a lot more, but those are the main ones. I will also like to add that I have nothing but respect for your friends coding skills.
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:50 PM   #889
Watermelons8
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Seregaxx does seem to have some human traits but something definitely feels "off" about him. Going back through my DB and looking at hands that Seregaxx has played, his 3 barrels seem to get through an inordinate amount of the time, he's always 3betting me with trash and out flopping me after I 4B and he seems to barrel or almost every single time I don't have it. Just played a few suspicious hands with him and z81ima

PokerStars - $2 Ante $0.40 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

PokerStars - $2 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 100 BB
Seregaxx: 118.6 BB
MP: 179.48 BB
CO: 98.5 BB
BTN: 111.34 BB
z81ima: 225.76 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A 9 4 8

Seregaxx raises to 3.5 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 3.5 BB, z81ima calls 3 BB, Hero calls 2.5 BB

Flop: (14 BB, 4 players) 3 6 J
z81ima checks, Hero checks, Seregaxx bets 13.37 BB, fold, z81ima raises to 34 BB, fold, fold

SB wins 39.34 BB


Seregaxx: 312.36 BB
SB: 1491.82 BB
z81ima: 269.37 BB
UTG: 76.42 BB
Hero (MP): 197.14 BB
CO: 102.79 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, 6 players post ante of 0.2 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.7 BB) Hero has T Q K J

fold, Hero raises to 4.7 BB, fold, BTN calls 4.7 BB, fold, BB calls 3.7 BB

Flop: (15.8 BB, 3 players) 6 8 A
BB checks, Hero checks, Seregaxx bets 12.5 BB, z81ima raises to 32.5 BB, Hero raises to 125.09 BB, fold, fold

Hero wins 91.9 BB

z8ima is located in Russia and has exceptionally similar stats to Seregaxx. Going through my DB, I also see his post flop raises getting through an exceptionally high %
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:57 PM   #890
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Stats dont lie...
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:15 PM   #891
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Sergei,

When and how did you get into online poker?

Do you have any poker friends? Who are they?
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:26 PM   #892
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watermelons8 View Post
z8ima is located in Russia and has exceptionally similar stats to Seregaxx.
please post proof for that (screenshots) or stop random accusations. I have 40 stats in my HUD and when I compare seregaxx and z81ima there are 8 stats that differ by 3 percent or less. and 3 of them are 3bet and raise cbet ip/oop which are pretty similar for most of the regs. So, it really does not look like z81ima and Seregaxx are related in any way...

To give you an idea what very similar means:
If I compare Fedor and seregaxx f.e. I find 22 out of 40 stats to be same or differing by at most 3 percent. And there are additional 8 stats that differ by 4 percent...
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:34 PM   #893
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Pokerstars so far (during years) have shown enormous neglicence in most cheating scandals , and I insist their refunds amounts are such a big joke after all the rake everyone of us pay.
So. Much. This.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:41 PM   #894
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Schwein :

What would be the best way for Sergei to dissociate himself from that group of bot ?

Finding a couple of stats that are radically, statistically, different from the group ? There is dozens of stats available in HEM, surely if he wasn't the owner or part of this group a couple of the key stats would look different than the others wouldn't it ?

What are the odds that 20-30++ stats are in line with this group of player ? The evidences shown are completely damning imho.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:50 PM   #895
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

So a bunch of people in same region of world unknown to poker community immediately jump into games with identical stats unlike 10k other players and all crush.


Totally believable.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:01 PM   #896
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

1. Great job from all the Bosses who are still working on this case on and behind the scene.

2. Also Joe taking the most GTO long term decision gives me some hope.

derail
3. I am not bad NL 6max player. I am not a good poker player I have very conservative BR management and I almost never take shots highest I played was nl100 6max and HU. I never deposited in poker (out side of moving parts of my bankroll ) using the $50 from pokerstratxxx@com. For reasons ranging from cancer therapy to being sued for a medical bill I lost all I had...
Well in Bulgaria we have only one poker site and this is PS.
Last year I lost all stacking opportunities, our PS does not have P to P transfer. As I am totally broke but play with snowie and CRev instead of video games ( they don't run on my laptop ). I was sure I can beat nl5 zoom and still crush the minimal wage here ( I am 60% invalid by law, ofc the state gimes $0 in support).
Well I did it!
I put $20 and crushed nl2 and currently am winning at ev14bb/100 in the first 160k hands at nl5 zoom.
I am saying all of this because I study PLO for 3 or 4 months now. I watch all the videos and I am reg. at Joe's podcast. I aspire to be like those guys and I am dreaming of getting out of the micros and crushing low stakes PLO!
After reading this thread and calculating the rake at PLO25, I feel like my soul was crushed. Probably one of the saddest days of my life to date.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:01 PM   #897
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Schwein, I don't know what you expect him to say. It sounds like short of a confession, you don't want to hear it because it won't really "clear" him. Clearly, he's not going to confess, whether or not he's guilty.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:08 PM   #898
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I hope nobody sees seregaxxx's post as any indicator whatsoever of him being a legit player. He just had the bot play, maybe occasionally jumped in (like Fedor when playing HU) and now discovered this thread. Out of fear and to look human now there is actually a human being behind the screenname. Like Tim said, stats don't lie.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:39 PM   #899
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Its not even like he is denying anything. If somebody would accuse me of botting or using in game gto software i for sure would deny those allegations in a very different way and manner. Teh only thing which was denied in his post was holecardsharing which i believe.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:48 PM   #900
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seregaxx View Post
My strategy depend on the opponent I play and my game knowledge.
What kind of results do you have against the suspected botters? Are you glad that some of them have been banned?
Can you help with the investigation by examining your database?

If you're completely innocent, then it must be depressing to have the finger pointed at you. But now you have an opportunity to not only clear your name, but help rid the game of cheats. I think you should take it.
ArtyMcFly is offline   Reply With Quote

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