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Old 06-12-2015, 09:29 PM   #851
ArtyMcFly
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by DaFooFighter View Post
I hope someone with more time on his hands can look into it and share some interesting stuff. At this moment I can go so far to imagine that Poker Stars doesn't know about it at all...
Just for the record, Stars/FTP staff have been aware of the public bot forums for around a decade, and routinely close the accounts of users of the basic breakeven/losing bots being discussed on them. They are apparently quite easy to detect using Stars' "industry standard bot-detection algorithms". Poker-AI.org and its sister site for the openholdem bot were originally maintained by someone with 1385 posts on 2+2. He made no secret of his "interest" in botting, and was somewhat vocal in arguing for it to be allowed. He disappeared from 2+2 circa 2011 (and possibly quit online poker altogether), although he may well have surfaced under a different screenname.

The bots being discussed in this thread may share some of the "ancient" holdembot technology like that discussed on the poker-AI forums, but they are clearly not openly discussed on sites you can find via Google. This "PLO colluder-bot" is more underground, more sophisticated, and evidently poses a greater threat to the game. Or to put it another way, unlike the crappy bots of old, this bot is hard to detect and it actually beats the regs. Its problem. /derail
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:01 AM   #852
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Seregaxx can speak english propably, i have talkd with him many times in table. He he still is a part of bot ring. No doubt.
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:48 AM   #853
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by shimmy View Post
I am working on this, preliminary results based on ~350k hands from the suspected accounts of which 43k hands have more than account at table don't show any evidence of collusion: the accounts are running roughly at EV over all hands and below EV when more than one is at the table.

Many more hands to import and other things to check...
So the facts shows they are not sharing cards?
Thats bad cause that means the software they use is better than i expected.

Sent from my SM-N7505 using 2+2 Forums
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:08 AM   #854
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Not running abov EV doesn't really say that much. They could still chase draws with better equity than average knowing 4 or 8 extra cards for example. I myself am interested in their nonshowdown winnings, compared to the best winning legit regs on PLO.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:15 AM   #855
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

non sd is higher than for avg players, look Joeys linked graph.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:18 AM   #856
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

If any of the experts are willing to do some analysis on Party, I'll be happy to pay a little for the effort. Other legit players playing on there might as well?!
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:27 AM   #857
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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If any of the experts are willing to do some analysis on Party, I'll be happy to pay a little for the effort. Other legit players playing on there might as well?!
+ 1, just let me know where/who to send $
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:02 AM   #858
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Not running abov EV doesn't really say that much. They could still chase draws with better equity than average knowing 4 or 8 extra cards for example...
But chasing draws with this knowledge would end in running above ev in the long run, right?
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:08 AM   #859
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I still can't believe that colluding isn't part of their plan.

- they do not adjust to player types or history (AFAIK)
- they do not table select hard

- still: they are crushing like no one else does.

Is bare untilted GTO Poker really that powerful?
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:19 AM   #860
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Pastafiore View Post
Seregaxx can speak english propably, i have talkd with him many times in table. He he still is a part of bot ring. No doubt.
jeah i thought exactly the same. Seen him chatting a lot in english.
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:35 AM   #861
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Thanks a lot for all the good work guys. I would also be interested in Party and willing to pay some $. This is pbb already posted but I can't find it, what about the refunds (on stars)?
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Old 06-13-2015, 05:14 AM   #862
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I was chatting with Sergaxx many times, his ok in english. Was suspicious about him, but have no proof (few times he text me the sime time he makes a play)
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Old 06-13-2015, 05:49 AM   #863
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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jeah i thought exactly the same. Seen him chatting a lot in english.
Report for Potential multiaccounting also?
does Stars keep track of Chat history? Would be kinda obv. If he at some point writes good english and then does what ever it was above.
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Old 06-13-2015, 05:53 AM   #864
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Pastafiore View Post
Seregaxx can speak english propably, i have talkd with him many times in table. He he still is a part of bot ring. No doubt.

Yes I remember you saying you spoke to him and I think Fedorsayev who asked if you wanted a HU match? They are panicking this Bot network as sergeaxx never plays HU. But he played just 3 tables for a while against L0ve2playu and a few recs not regs and destroyed all but the Dutch Pro who we know is a genuine very good player like you Pasta as you beat me with your eyes closed Massive bot ring on PokerStars/Party and how to spot them but I know you too are a genuine good player. It is very weird that most of these bots from Eastern Europe can speak perfect English and use UK or American slang with abbreviations and now they can't speak English? I think this is a who European network from east to Western Europe, operating in countries it would be very difficult to prosecute. It does not matter if bots colluding together are in different countries as it take milliseconds to get data say from Estonia to Russia etc.

So a lot of variables to deal with when pokerstars have finished this investigation as they have a huge task on their hands as it it not something their team can solve overnight. Schwein, Richas, Oink and myself have offered to liaise with pokerstars with our thoughts and suggestions.
The bottom line is whatever the outcome, pokerstars should do the right thing and pay back all losses incurred especially in my all-in situation where when 80%+ favourite on the flop to win both streets I win just 55% which is a huge statistical difference of 25% below expectation and is as suspicious as it gets.

I think there are a few professional players who are part of the programming team of these bots as sergeaxx played on his own but still crushed all 3 tables and his account known to us all is someone we don't want to sit with. I can see him doing one last cash out and vanish. I can't see him making a statement on 2+2 or the nvg thread hijacking schweins good work with oink & Richas et Al.

Maybe pokerstars Steve can give a brief update?
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Old 06-13-2015, 06:24 AM   #865
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Dandan160808 View Post
Yes I remember you saying you spoke to him and I think Fedorsayev who asked if you wanted a HU match? They are panicking this Bot network as sergeaxx never plays HU.
it was seregaxx who asked me HU.

anyway, those misspellings are made on purpose, every1 sees that. just like 15year old teen who is trying to play drunk for someone he is texting. i have been chatting with seregaxx many times and he was speaking better english than i do, at least.

now another thing i am still thinking and id really like to get answer for that, "pokerstars does need time" is not even close good enough.

why they still have not banned or already even frozen for temporary those suspect accounts?

-there is only one reason for that i can figure: part of employees/ex employees are corrupted/connected with this bot ring somehow.

-most sportsbetting sites do ban/put limits for people if they are winning players, wich is not illegal, they just can, i assume pokerstars can also.......

-pepople behind the bots are adjusting obv because they do read this, so you cant catch them by wathing how they play now, or you are ****ing ******ed if you think so.

-pokerstars does lose insted of winning by letting bots play even if they make lot of rake, wich also makes no sense for that they still let them play.

-people are pushing very hard from everywhere, in here for example.

-evidence is 99,999999999999999% proof already.

-their team wich is "trying to solve" this case (wich is already solved in thise suspected bots situation at least) does look really braindead, wich also is not very good for pokerstars imago, ooooor?

if that's so, thats just ****ing sad. loosing my mind soon, ****ing clowns.
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Old 06-13-2015, 06:25 AM   #866
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by CRACKplusTWO View Post
Report for Potential multiaccounting also?
does Stars keep track of Chat history? Would be kinda obv. If he at some point writes good english and then does what ever it was above.
Nice post.

Also. Surely they can compare historic chat logs. You would think anyway.
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Old 06-13-2015, 06:34 AM   #867
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Pastafiore View Post
-there is only one reason for that i can figure: part of employees/ex employees are corrupted/connected with this bot ring somehow.
Well I'm glad someone said it before me.
I don't like to sound like a paranoid, but it happened in other rooms and could be happening on PS.
If the bots aren't cheating, they are doing something else. If they are playing close to GTO, you should analyze their frequencies and think if are making any sense... if not, something more shady is going on.
I'm afraid to say it, but legit (good) players don't have their frequencies, so this could mean that someone could find something nobody has understood yet (solved PLO somewhat) or they are cheating in a more subtle way, and someone within PS could e involved...
Imho, GTO is not involved here...too many BOTs are used, and this raise the chance of getting caught. It's ok to use an army of BOTs to play small stakes and raise a bankroll, but when you have enough money, you could let 1/2 crushing higher stakes, with no chance of getting caught.
Also PS silence is strange, maybe they found something but they want to be sure before posting it?
Ok no more conspiracy theories, but we cannot exclude anything right now

Last edited by 4-Star General; 06-13-2015 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 06-13-2015, 06:36 AM   #868
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Thumbs up Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Pastafiore View Post
hey still have not banned or already even frozen for temporary those suspect accounts?
It's quite possible they are as none of them appeared to play yesterday.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Stars is in on it either. I had said before that they were incompetent but I think that's being to lax on them as well. I think negligent is the perfect term for them here and they should pay a lot back to the people the bots played. ffs even punitive damages in a real court could be awarded here* as people that lost to them lost their chance to move up to make a bunch more.

*assuming poker was taken seriously, at all.
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Old 06-13-2015, 06:44 AM   #869
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

yeah, just my toughts (in kinda tilt) so dont take me too serious, you just cant be too paranoid in this kind of cases.

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Originally Posted by .isolated View Post
It's quite possible they are as none of them appeared to play yesterday.
very good if that's so. im not sure do i remember right but few hours ago i could saw one.

Last edited by Pastafiore; 06-13-2015 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:03 AM   #870
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

none of them have been playing today either
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:19 AM   #871
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

As for inside information or a dodgy member of staff. This is very plausible as in a pokerstars video on bots etc they had a team of 80 integrity workers where it was stated each staff member were all poker players and what are some poker players? Gamblers all chasing the dream of bonking a large tournament or turning $50 in to $1m's by grinding day and night. A tiny majority of poker players only ever achieve this dream. What if you had an addicted gambler With major debts working in the integrity team who gets approached by Mafia type BOT colluders offering huge amounts of cash to make a few accounts very profitable by showing hole cards. I'm a fraud expert and I've not done a poker case yet as I deal with multi million pound complex fraud, carousel tax fraud and every type of collusion or tax evasion going. We have 3 offices in London, Birmingham and Manchester dealing in fraud and my area being anything computer related running in to billions in at least 5 cases. I work for Kangs solicitors as a private investigator and I do all the technical investigations. This company is the best fraud team in the UK.
I would be willing to look in to party poker but would need all grievances pm'd as you don't give the game away that you are on to certain bots or dodgy players.
But it's about time we had an update from pokerstars and hoping we hear very soon.
My wife's expecting an email soon after I helped to write an email to pokerstars from her with my own input. We have had a good lengthy reply and agreed on a short period of time to solve and compensate all those that have been affected. You can never rule out anything in fraud so those who state "oh this and that can't happen are talking rubbish"
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:23 AM   #872
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Moxyyy played yesterday, drozd77 is playing right now...
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:34 AM   #873
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

****tt
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:41 AM   #874
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

For you conspiracy theorists out there, I think it's EXTREMELY unlikely that Stars is in on it. I base this only on the fact that these guys all started playing before Amaya bought Stars...and I don't want it to be true. Ofc it would make for a juicier story and people aren't happy that they aren't shutdown immediately but that means **** all at this point. Part of me wonders if any will since they weren't taken out late last year when first reported.................Just not enough evidence for them, I guess.

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Moxyyy played yesterday, drozd77 is playing right now...
Two out of ten in 36 hours is pretty good imo.
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Old 06-13-2015, 08:12 AM   #875
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

The most tilting thing is that stars doesn't feel the need to come out and at least make a comment. They know they have us by the balls, they don't even care. How else are we gonna make money.
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