Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-12-2015, 04:51 PM   #826
LifeWithFaceCards
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: tumblr
Posts: 194
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mig View Post
The worse thing imo about this whole situation is that there is virtually no way for pokerstars to win this battle. Sure they will ban a bot here and there but it's not so hard to buy ids from certain countries and each iteration of a given bot is going to look more and more human.

The only way I can think of is if pokerstars asked each and every player to have a cam connected at all times that they could access randomly and even then if the bot is really +ev how hard would it be to play someone to stay in from of a screen.

Poker as we know it is probably doomed just like chess and backgammon are.
i think the most obvious and easiest thing that can be done is for stars to flag accounts that come out of nowhere and play >50k hands in a month (or some other arbitrary but large amount of hands over an arbitrary time period). if an account suddenly starts playing a ton, flag it and make it go through a trial period where cashouts are limited and the account is watched.

the point is, in today's poker environment it is wildly unusual for a player to come out of nowhere, play a ton of hands, and crush. any account that does so should be met with skepticism and investigation by a competent body.
LifeWithFaceCards is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 04:57 PM   #827
Schwein
centurion
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Numbers dont lie
Posts: 115
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandan160808 View Post
I've given pokerstars the chance to deal with this bot ring and to do the right thing including substantial compensation to all affected.
I'm getting the feeling that if Schwein wants the media mags to run this then he may have run in to a brick wall.

I am on very good terms and have a load of investigative journalist friends for which I've uncovered multi types of fraud so far nothing to do with poker.

I can with no trouble get this story Put in the the British "Mail on Sunday" "the daily Mail" any of Lord rothermeres other 4 national papers including the daily mail, the Metro, the observer and I expect the interest would be immense and Lord Rothermere owns a very large stake in ITV where my good friend is the deputy editor for ITN news and ITV news in general.

Pokerstars have been written too and I accept it will take a couple more days but if these suspected bots who ARE still playing as of now are not suspended and pokerstars does nothing about this then I will liaise with Scwein et Al to get this full national media coverage across the UK which will have a huge media knock on effect.

So do PM me if you think are being fobbed of Schwein or oink or Richas then it's the national newspaper arena and have this all in by next Sunday run by ITV and several national newspapers.

So give pokerstars the few days they need to evaluate this with a lengthy answer and the correct amount of compensation to all affected players whether the bots clean their accounts out or not.

Pm me and I can give you my professional details etc plus contacts and I hope pokerstars closes the suspect accounts now until the investigation is over.
Hi Dan. I feel like we got enough media coverage now, maybe more then enough. I wanted to see a public statement by PokerStars that they will deal with it ASAP. The way it works with big corporations this days, our only chance to have it resolved quickly was to make it public.

I absolutely dont want to hurt online poker or PokerStars, I still believe that they are the best site to play on, but they really need to step up their game when it comes to catching those kind of rings.
Schwein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 05:06 PM   #828
potbet
newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 45
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

atm none of them is playing stars (plo 200-600 including zoom) while one of them is just playing 2 tables ipoker. a good sign that accounts might be at least frozen now?
potbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 05:08 PM   #829
urubu222
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 437
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mig View Post
The worse thing imo about this whole situation is that there is virtually no way for pokerstars to win this battle. Sure they will ban a bot here and there but it's not so hard to buy ids from certain countries and each iteration of a given bot is going to look more and more human.

The only way I can think of is if pokerstars asked each and every player to have a cam connected at all times that they could access randomly and even then if the bot is really +ev how hard would it be to play someone to stay in from of a screen.

Poker as we know it is probably doomed just like chess and backgammon are.
agree , worse thing is this bots are coming back for sure. but i think theres some hope... if stars get some guys (like schwein) and pay them to do what they did, 1 time each 60 days ? or something like this .

the cam i dont think its a good idea. recs will think its weird and not every computer has a webcam. (mine dont have for ex) .
urubu222 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 05:23 PM   #830
Richas
veteran
 
Richas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the learning curve
Posts: 3,440
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandan160808 View Post
So do PM me if you think are being fobbed of Schwein or oink or Richas then it's the national newspaper arena and have this all in by next Sunday run by ITV and several national newspapers.
The press in the UK is predominantly anti gambling. It was the Mail that scuppered supercasinos and it and the Observer/Guardian are happy to join in the anti FOBT nonsense.

Well actually that is a bit too simplistic the Guardian/Observer is out and out anti gambling in part due to their methodist roots. The Mail group is generally pro UK casinos anti the rest - they opposed supercasinos to try to keep the big US casinos out.

I know all this seems like it has been going on too long but in terms of an investigation or regulatory action it is a mere blink. I'm not convinced national press is the way to go yet - in part we have no sympathetic victim, we have no real conclusion, no identified villain and no real clear demand beyond Stars pay money to people who gamble a lot, many for a living.

The risks outweigh any potential benefit - however in a few weeks/months when the new CEO of the UKGC is appointed then their might be a hook for a story on her job as needing to clean up global poker (She starts 1st October)
Richas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 05:26 PM   #831
YouAreHappy
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 155
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by MX210 View Post
Pictures
You might not want to post 100k samples on legit people even if its just very basic stats...?
YouAreHappy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 05:29 PM   #832
HUstylez
RIP HUNL Champ
 
HUstylez's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 13,803
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

wow didnt even see you had a full tilt column, no wonder i haven't seen ibizadreaming around in forever, he used to always sit the 5/10 shallow tables i was at and i can definitely see that now.

sickening, for real
HUstylez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 05:31 PM   #833
Schwein
centurion
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Numbers dont lie
Posts: 115
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas View Post
The press in the UK is predominantly anti gambling. It was the Mail that scuppered supercasinos and it and the Observer/Guardian are happy to join in the anti FOBT nonsense.

Well actually that is a bit too simplistic the Guardian/Observer is out and out anti gambling in part due to their methodist roots. The Mail group is generally pro UK casinos anti the rest - they opposed supercasinos to try to keep the big US casinos out.

I know all this seems like it has been going on too long but in terms of an investigation or regulatory action it is a mere blink. I'm not convinced national press is the way to go yet - in part we have no sympathetic victim, we have no real conclusion, no identified villain and no real clear demand beyond Stars pay money to people who gamble a lot, many for a living.

The risks outweigh any potential benefit - however in a few weeks/months when the new CEO of the UKGC is appointed then their might be a hook for a story on her job as needing to clean up global poker (She starts 1st October)
Totally agree with this. I have posted my take on this 3 posts up from Richas.
Schwein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 05:37 PM   #834
bumpnrun
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: lol imo
Posts: 2,819
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

So sick ..following
bumpnrun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 05:45 PM   #835
Igobustosoon
grinder
 
Igobustosoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 506
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

seregaxx:, post from me ready
seregaxx: but i wait mu friend for tranclate
hero: ?
seregaxx: 2+2
Dealer: seregaxx has two pair, Aces and Tens
Dealer: PeiMaiPano93 has a straight, Seven to Jack
Dealer: Hand #136633251098: PeiMaiPano93 wins pot ($97.20) with a straight,Seven to Jack
hero: speak proper english
hero: what do u mean
seregaxx: and i know who is swain
hero: swain?
seregaxx: my eng is bad
seregaxx: not soo good for posting
hero: doesnt matter but dont understand what ur talking about
hero: are u gonna post on 2+2?
seregaxx: to morrow
Dealer: Hand #136633314091: seregaxx wins pot ($66.20)
hero: ok cool u should
seregaxx: need help for tranclate
Dealer: Hand #136633392762: reppinR1 wins pot ($6.68)
hero: i see, got to go bye
seregaxx: gl



I am curious now
Igobustosoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 06:06 PM   #836
Trife
journeyman
 
Trife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 257
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Wtf....i had no knowledge of this.

Sites are enslaving us guys.

One idea would be to make our own company, with our own BOT detection program and a team of workers who`ll monitor it for a monthly fee or w/e.
Blackmail the sites that we`ll not play until our BOT detection software has full access to all the hands played on the site across all limits for all games.
Trife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 06:07 PM   #837
napsus
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
napsus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Twitter in bio
Posts: 9,556
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
Willy and another person helping me on this case have checked all the PL100+ hands from 1 May 2015 onwards. I can conclude that all the bots from this ring on PL100 and up are already discovered. Any player that isnt on this list is innocent.

I have updated my list, 11 names with a NO written in red next to them were still active as of 1 June 2015. The blacked out name got discovered after PokerStars made their public statement and I started sending all the names directly to them instead of making them public.



Added another column to the list, its profit with rakeback, estimated at 50% average.

The botring played an estimated 17.8M hands, made 2.82M with rakeback and the damage done to legit players is at least 4.16M. Once again those estimates are lowballed because RPTR misses some normal hands and alot of zoom hands, the rakeback estimates are rather conservative as well.

If any news website would like to run an article on this then those are the numbers to quote.
this summary added to OP.
napsus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 06:49 PM   #838
Ansky
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Ansky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: .
Posts: 17,523
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Sorry if I missed this somewhere, but are the bots as a whole running far above EV? If that is the case over 17mm hands, it would be more evidence that they are sharing hole cards as well.
Ansky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 06:51 PM   #839
Dandan160808
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 135
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post
Hi Dan. I feel like we got enough media coverage now, maybe more then enough. I wanted to see a public statement by PokerStars that they will deal with it ASAP. The way it works with big corporations this days, our only chance to have it resolved quickly was to make it public.

I absolutely dont want to hurt online poker or PokerStars, I still believe that they are the best site to play on, but they really need to step up their game when it comes to catching those kind of rings.

I do agree that pokerstars is the best site for all poker and yes me and my wife have had a very lengthy positive response but with a few ( we can't tell you why we've banned A,B or C etc ) or enhance on many things etc. they have far from said that no corruption has taken place as they wrote that they have banned many accounts etc.

My own wife being what is basically robbed by bot making scumbags and losing thousands when the odds were stacked against her does make her look like a crap player but her all-in stats say it all. There is a 25% difference in her winning an 80% all-in against most of these Bots and one that she says follows her about and she can't beat as he hits then leaves the table quickly with double his starting stack on nearly every occasion. Alepato77. Now today I looked at all levels of PLO zoom and mostly the Eastern Europeans are playing all 4 tables allowed as opposed to any one from Western Europe. I'm meaning Russia, Estonia, Latvia, khasikstan. The latter 3 countries having the poorest income of any eastern block country playing up to 24/7.
Now no one on the list of yours apart from a brief appearance from Seargeaxx played and he still had 3 tables of 3.5 stacks, 2.5 and a 1 buyin stack and he'd only just come on to the site after a quick all in destruction of a few recs with LOve2playu doing well as a known pro I expect taking notes on this situation.

We can only see what pokerstars has investigated and the action taken and full compensation offered to all affected who had also paid rake for a fair game that turned in to a virtual no win no win.

Wait a few more days and see what happens but there is enough stats to sink a battleship and their is corruption of some kind with those kind of stats and shoving with complete crap and losing to villain who shoves with 477Q losing to XAAX nearly every time.

Best wishes all and let's clean these games up.
Dandan160808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 07:12 PM   #840
aoFrantic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aoFrantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,914
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansky View Post
Sorry if I missed this somewhere, but are the bots as a whole running far above EV? If that is the case over 17mm hands, it would be more evidence that they are sharing hole cards as well.
In the early posts the first ~6-10 were very high above EV. I don't know if there has been an update since we got to 27 or whatever we're at now.
aoFrantic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 07:12 PM   #841
Dandan160808
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 135
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igobustosoon View Post
seregaxx:, post from me ready

seregaxx: but i wait mu friend for tranclate

hero: ?

seregaxx: 2+2

Dealer: seregaxx has two pair, Aces and Tens

Dealer: PeiMaiPano93 has a straight, Seven to Jack

Dealer: Hand #136633251098: PeiMaiPano93 wins pot ($97.20) with a straight,Seven to Jack

hero: speak proper english

hero: what do u mean

seregaxx: and i know who is swain

hero: swain?

seregaxx: my eng is bad

seregaxx: not soo good for posting

hero: doesnt matter but dont understand what ur talking about

hero: are u gonna post on 2+2?

seregaxx: to morrow

Dealer: Hand #136633314091: seregaxx wins pot ($66.20)

hero: ok cool u should

seregaxx: need help for tranclate

Dealer: Hand #136633392762: reppinR1 wins pot ($6.68)

hero: i see, got to go bye

seregaxx: gl







I am curious now

I think Seargeaxx is trying to level you on "I speak no English" fedor is suspected brother bot speaks excellent English so why not get him to post or " I'm not holding my breath with a statement from sergeaxx. He can post in Russian and I'll offer to translate it for him. Or anyone can get a Rough idea by using some very good language translation programs. I use them if I can't speak a language and they get the general idea you're on to them and they don't reply in Russian or their native language.
Dandan160808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 07:13 PM   #842
Trife
journeyman
 
Trife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 257
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

@Ansky - read posts from #127 - #130.
Trife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 07:39 PM   #843
Grethe
old hand
 
Grethe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Waiting for the heater
Posts: 1,300
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

@AIEV,

The first banned accounts were running waaay over AIEV. It is not possible to setup filters in HEM2 to do the comparing "when two of the players were at the same table" though.

@seregaxx
Of all the guys suspected, seregaxx is one of the guys I suspect less. Have seen him do some crazy **** like 3betting Q772ss, calling 4-bet OOP etc.
Grethe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 07:43 PM   #844
MX210
banned
 
MX210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 401
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grethe View Post
Seregaxx
Of all the guys suspected, seregaxx is one of the guys I suspect less. Have seen him do some crazy **** like 3betting Q772ss, calling 4-bet OOP etc.
He could simply be taking over for the bot more often than other guys.
He could be a degen running a bot for the ring and being a degen would explain why when he takes over he's terrible and why he's still playing now when he should just withdraw and quit.

He stated that he can't communicate in basic english. It's hard to believe a complete crusher wouldnt be able to communicate at all in english.
MX210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 07:44 PM   #845
4-Star General
adept
 
4-Star General's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,012
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grethe View Post
@AIEV,

The first banned accounts were running waaay over AIEV. It is not possible to setup filters in HEM2 to do the comparing "when two of the players were at the same table" though.
It is not possible within HEM2, but you can use pgadmin, query the DB and check the results while both playing at the same table
4-Star General is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 07:57 PM   #846
tokatrain
newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 20
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grethe View Post
@AIEV,

@seregaxx
Of all the guys suspected, seregaxx is one of the guys I suspect less. Have seen him do some crazy **** like 3betting Q772ss, calling 4-bet OOP etc.
At first I had seregaxx noted as a spazz hyperagro fish cause of the 3bet/4bet stuff he does. but somehow he always manages hit enough of the board to stackoff and very often wins.

My EP open is 14% and hes 3bet calls a 4bet with a664ss from MP 100 deep, there is no possible way a 10bb/100 winner can be doing this. This thread really explains alot imo.
tokatrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 08:06 PM   #847
4-Star General
adept
 
4-Star General's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,012
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mig View Post
The worse thing imo about this whole situation is that there is virtually no way for pokerstars to win this battle. Sure they will ban a bot here and there but it's not so hard to buy ids from certain countries and each iteration of a given bot is going to look more and more human.

The only way I can think of is if pokerstars asked each and every player to have a cam connected at all times that they could access randomly and even then if the bot is really +ev how hard would it be to play someone to stay in from of a screen.

Poker as we know it is probably doomed just like chess and backgammon are.
You are wrong, security methods has to change.
Think about computer security. Many hackers are making viruses,exploits and other things while security expert are fighting them.
By your logic, since hackers will continue, your only chance is give up.

Let's face it, poker room security sucks in general, that's why are the perfect target for bots...
Something has to change, PS and other rooms need to hire real security experts, guys like OP to do custom and costant analysis and so on.
Of course, if things stays like now, poker is doomed. Probably the issue here is that PS hasn't consider BOTs threats, until now.
Let's hope for the best, I'm positive that something will be done, maybe it won't prevent all the future attempts but something will change for sure
4-Star General is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 08:07 PM   #848
Schwein
centurion
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Numbers dont lie
Posts: 115
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I have googled the "PLO bot ring" and the NVG thread is higher then this one. The guy who started it copied half of my post without explaining who is legit and who is not. I have informed the admins and they added my post in full with the additional explanation who is legit. Protecting the human players is top priority for me.

I tried to be very carefull with how I chose the wording for each of my posts, if anyone wants to quote me, you are welcome to do so but please dont cut my posts into parts. That can misrepresent everything badly. Dumb luck has it I didnt use full screen names for the chart that is now in NVG and only abbreviations.
Schwein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 08:28 PM   #849
Trife
journeyman
 
Trife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 257
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
security methods has to change.
100%, that`s why i think there should be a third party company monitoring the games for BOTS/collusion/etc.
Trife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 08:45 PM   #850
shimmy
adept
 
shimmy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: London England innit.
Posts: 909
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansky View Post
Sorry if I missed this somewhere, but are the bots as a whole running far above EV? If that is the case over 17mm hands, it would be more evidence that they are sharing hole cards as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grethe View Post
@AIEV,
The first banned accounts were running waaay over AIEV. It is not possible to setup filters in HEM2 to do the comparing "when two of the players were at the same table" though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4-Star General View Post
It is not possible within HEM2, but you can use pgadmin, query the DB and check the results while both playing at the same table
I am working on this, preliminary results based on ~350k hands from the suspected accounts of which 43k hands have more than account at table don't show any evidence of collusion: the accounts are running roughly at EV over all hands and below EV when more than one is at the table.

Many more hands to import and other things to check...
shimmy is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive