Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-12-2015, 07:16 AM   #776
Dandan160808
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 135
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by freewilly12 View Post
No worries. These guys are watching our back

https://youtu.be/d5upxYyeoQ8

Large team but looked as if some of the integrity team were playing poker? I know it's part of the testing and they said most of the integrity team are poker players with a good understanding of poker.
Poker players are all gamblers and it's fair to say want to make money fast.
It would be a much better idea to get a few independent statisticians with no interest in gambling who would have zero problem adjusting to the gambling environment. I have offered my own services but I'll wait and see what happens.
Most notable statisticians and mathematicians and me included worked in research for the UK government for many years and money does not motivate us by working as a civil servant for the government in research as the salaries we receive is pretty awful compared to the public sector employing us. When working for the government the pressure is off for us to have less deadlines or commercial pressure to hurry up deadlines. I stayed in the civil service because of the amount of learning opportunities I learnt for free at the time and studying up to PhD level was a bonus. I know work in the public sector for a large company of solicitors preparing evidence for or against complex fraud cases.

My thanks to the OP and Schwein and Richas et Al for all the hard work you are doing or have done and lets all wait for the answer to the cheating scandal.
Dandan160808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 07:37 AM   #777
potbet
newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 45
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandan160808 View Post
Well it's the barest I've seen PLO $1/2 and $2/4 in a very long time
i thought you do not look at those stakes but your wife does

anyway the action on midstakes is as usual at this time of the day. 1 table 3/6, 3 tables 2/4 and 2 tables 1/2 running atm is nothing special.
potbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 08:28 AM   #778
Dandan160808
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 135
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Of coarse I have to look at those stakes to see what she's talking about. Are you saying that as I don't play those stakes that I can't back my own wife's experience up?

95% of poker I play is live and I've played a lot of online poker on all sites in the past. I'm the mathematician in the family and without my input on analysing her stats and suspected bots then she'd have a very weak case.
Dandan160808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 08:34 AM   #779
ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S
What SN is this?
 
ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: RoMAN EmpIre ЯR ЯR
Posts: 29,326
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Just starting to go through this thread now. Wanted to just say thanks to those doing the investigative work.
ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 08:35 AM   #780
kelnel
veteran
 
kelnel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: i <3 girafes
Posts: 2,717
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelnel View Post
I strongly agree with joeri's post about the rake made by stars because of the bots and have sent the following mail to stars:

Spoiler:


Will post if I get an answer

Got a disapointing answer:

Spoiler:


Cliffs:

Me: What is your stance on the rake you've made on unfair games (not just these games you are investingating now, but all time)?
PS: Thank you for your opinion, it will be taken into account.

Cliffs of cliffs: they did not answer.
kelnel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 08:42 AM   #781
AnotherMakiavelli
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,451
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

maybe it helps to look at other games that have been solved. for example backgammon. afaik the online sites use tools like snowie to compare the moves a player makes with the optimal move. they also know how good a human pro plays. the pro will make a certain amount of mistakes over time. if a bot is playing perfect backgammon it will raise some flags. this requires however, to know the perfect play.

i don't know how this is handled for online chess, should be interesting because chess is even easier to solve. and we all know how deep blue beat kasparov back in 1997.

doing analysis like schweini did, to find certain patterns is probably the best option for now, beside of other detection methods like process monitoring (as it is done in counterstrike for example with VAC running on the system with system privileges to find known cheats).
AnotherMakiavelli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 08:43 AM   #782
Loctus
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Loctus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 10,249
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

^That's an exact copy/paste of the reply I got (from a completely different support person)

edit: In response to kelnel

edit2: AnotherMakiavelli: Chess is not played online for money since it would just be bot/computer vs bot/computer every game. AFAIK neither is Backgammon for the same reason.

Last edited by Loctus; 06-12-2015 at 08:46 AM. Reason: .
Loctus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 09:06 AM   #783
AnotherMakiavelli
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,451
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
^That's an exact copy/paste of the reply I got (from a completely different support person)

edit: In response to kelnel

edit2: AnotherMakiavelli: Chess is not played online for money since it would just be bot/computer vs bot/computer every game. AFAIK neither is Backgammon for the same reason.
at least backgammon is definitely true. i have a friend living of that, playing the fifties and it's a nice profitable job at least it was like 2 years ago. i should ask him what's up now! with chess you are right dead
AnotherMakiavelli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 09:11 AM   #784
AnotherMakiavelli
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,451
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

there is some hope, i found this site where you can play chess for money! but i had to google a while, found one site that is not active anymore and so on.

https://www.topchess.com/

i don't know what security precautions they have in place. they claim it is ultra-advanced.

Last edited by AnotherMakiavelli; 06-12-2015 at 09:26 AM.
AnotherMakiavelli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 09:35 AM   #785
sirin
old hand
 
sirin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Grappling with local oaf
Posts: 1,963
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

The more I think about it, the more I feel like accusing stars of mere incompetence is putting it too lightly.

If, as seems to be the case, stars keeps all the rake they make from the bots, and only refunds players some % of the money that the bots make, then they are directly profiting from the existence of the bots, so while they may not be actively encouraging them, they have a financial incentive to at the very least not try their hardest to catch them.

This is a moral hazard that would surely be of interest to regulators.
sirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 10:15 AM   #786
CocteauTwin
old hand
 
CocteauTwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: King Isildur 4 ever <3 <3 <3
Posts: 1,612
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwein View Post

Since I started this thread a couple of PokerStars mid/highstakes regs emailed me that they have reported those players from my botting list, and not just one name but few of them after spotting an obvious connection between those accounts, and yet nothing was done. PokerStars Game Integrity was getting reports on those botters as early as October 2014.
Raging. RIP online poker.

Amazing work Schwein, if it weren't for efforts like yours where would we be!
CocteauTwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 10:18 AM   #787
MastaAces
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MastaAces's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Constant lapse of unconscious raps
Posts: 7,740
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by CocteauTwin View Post
Raging. RIP online poker.

Amazing work Schwein, if it weren't for efforts like yours where would we be!
on pokerstars playing cards?

great work, guys!
MastaAces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 10:27 AM   #788
CocteauTwin
old hand
 
CocteauTwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: King Isildur 4 ever <3 <3 <3
Posts: 1,612
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by apo5tol View Post
NeedB4Greed, I hate to sound impolite, but how about you go f yourself you nationalistic piece of biological waste.

Wtf does nationality have to do with being a scumbag? There are a lot of perfectly legitimate Eastern European players, while at the same time there are dare I say "human beings" such as you any country would be ashamed of having.
Thing is, after the Chinese, Russians are the second biggest cheaters, Stars said it themselves, and thought what to do about it. (I'm not a hater, lots of friends of mine are ruski and I speak it to a degree)

There can actually be a "culture" of cheating...like the chinese ended up segregated. Yeah it feels dirty to say it and innocent people caught up in the mix say it's all racist. I think 100% Stars wont segregate Russia though, but they have been faced with an issue similar to that of the Chinese rings.

I think there should be a return of PTR publicly again, for whatever negatives there were to it before there's so many more reasons to bring it back. If there wasn't RU PTR around what would people do?
CocteauTwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 10:41 AM   #789
Tornano
stranger
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 5
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirin View Post
The more I think about it, the more I feel like accusing stars of mere incompetence is putting it too lightly.

If, as seems to be the case, stars keeps all the rake they make from the bots, and only refunds players some % of the money that the bots make, then they are directly profiting from the existence of the bots, so while they may not be actively encouraging them, they have a financial incentive to at the very least not try their hardest to catch them.

This is a moral hazard that would surely be of interest to regulators.
This can be solved easily by the regulator. Just make stars responsible for the financial dmg cheaters do to honest players.

Does anybody now if there are strong long term winning players left at plo50 if u discount the cheating accounts?

Last edited by Tornano; 06-12-2015 at 10:53 AM.
Tornano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 11:07 AM   #790
Jajajaja
adept
 
Jajajaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 850
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirin View Post
The more I think about it, the more I feel like accusing stars of mere incompetence is putting it too lightly.

If, as seems to be the case, stars keeps all the rake they make from the bots, and only refunds players some % of the money that the bots make, then they are directly profiting from the existence of the bots, so while they may not be actively encouraging them, they have a financial incentive to at the very least not try their hardest to catch them.

This is a moral hazard that would surely be of interest to regulators.
I am on my phone so i cant link the post, but Kanu made a post in msnl saying that Stars does not only redistribute the funds that are in the cheaters account. Meaning if the cheater cashed out, stars pays out of there pocket the difference to the players.
Jajajaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 11:42 AM   #791
ihopeyouwin
grinder
 
ihopeyouwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 614
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Can we follow up on iPoker please? I think Schwein needs more hands.
ihopeyouwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 12:23 PM   #792
freewilly12
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 276
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihopeyouwin View Post
Can we follow up on iPoker please? I think Schwein needs more hands.
I exposed an iPoker PLO botring about half year ago.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...twork-1484699/

Ipoker seems to tolerate botting so very slim chance to get them banned there.
Allthough good to know who's who.

Last edited by freewilly12; 06-12-2015 at 12:32 PM.
freewilly12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 12:41 PM   #793
delek12
enthusiast
 
delek12's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 91
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by freewilly12 View Post
I exposed an iPoker PLO botring about half year ago.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...twork-1484699/

Ipoker seems to tolerate botting so very slim chance to get them banned there.
Allthough good to know who's who.
found very similar players to the ones you mention playing as low as PLO20. Ragtime84 comes to mind and Anarkii99 was also playing at that limit...will try to provide more names if needed
delek12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 01:01 PM   #794
DaFooFighter
centurion
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 159
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Not sure if anyone already posted about this but those "nice" people have a place to discuss this topic and do it very freely for a few years now. Link to forum: http://poker-ai.org/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=26

Also a quote from one of the sub forums



I hope someone with more time on his hands can look into it and share some interesting stuff. At this moment I can go so far to imagine that Poker Stars doesn't know about it at all...
DaFooFighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 01:16 PM   #795
Trife
journeyman
 
Trife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 257
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Sickening this thread is, props to everyone who put in work to expose the cheating players.

Sorry if already asked, but can a similar thing be happening at NLHE as well ?
Trife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 01:30 PM   #796
4-Star General
adept
 
4-Star General's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,012
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Why the users cannot be criminal prosecuted? Clearly I'm missing a piece of that...this could be fraud. Obv something is preventing the room to do so... what is it?
4-Star General is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 01:44 PM   #797
freewilly12
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 276
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trife View Post
Sickening this thread is, props to everyone who put in work to expose the cheating players.

Sorry if already asked, but can a similar thing be happening at NLHE as well ?
There has been sophisticated botrings at NL for years:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/56...ngame-1112918/

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...poker-1455008/

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-view-1474198/
freewilly12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 02:02 PM   #798
viking1
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 850
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I do not believe they are bots. Pokerstars has the best antibot software of all the pokersites. They would have picked up this a long time ago if they were real bots using automatic scripts.
viking1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 02:04 PM   #799
ChicagoJoey
Papi
 
ChicagoJoey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: I AM GTO
Posts: 15,420
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I am going to have Sam Ganzfried on a podcast . He is the guy behind the Claudico bot. Going to discuss the PLO botting situation among other things. I'm sure he will have some unique insight into things. If anyone can give me some technical questions that will be GTO to ask let me know
ChicagoJoey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2015, 02:11 PM   #800
kelnel
veteran
 
kelnel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: i <3 girafes
Posts: 2,717
Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

wtf this is so scary

kelnel is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive