of course they can do anything with a bot... adjust him to certain players/stats, change tendencies, chat whenever they want through same account, sit in and sit out at any table... These are far from evidences.

Btw did stars reply to the new account list suspected?

From the playing patterns listed in OP this would more likely be humans operating with a program that feeds them the exact action to perform, rather than auto-playing-bots. This would allow free chatting, etc

Having same stats doesnt mean they are bots ...

Fedor and samantha aint bots imo, I dont remember the rest or havent played too much with them.

The "they are just a group of players that studies poker together" was mentioned a few times. To begin with, 17 accounts is a rather large group, and 10 of them already got banned, 9 mentioned by Oink here http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...7&postcount=35 and BOOTTLEGGER.

I have spend a good amount of time looking for them and checking a list of 20 stats I found most relevant (Cbet, FvCB, checkR, AFQ) on flop, turn and river. Steal CO, steal BTN, WTSD, 3bet&sqz, Agg BB, Agg, postflop Agg.

The accounts I have posted have a striking similarity on all of those 20 stats. I havent found a single account that has half of the stats like they should be and the other half all over the place.

So if it was a study group, every single one of them did perfectly adjust his stats from day 1, so they ideally line up. Can you believe that? Because I cant. I am really good with numbers but I couldnt get my stats to look like that if my live depended on it, maybe some of them or most, but not all of them.

To further research the study group theory I had checked various groups of players I suspect might study poker together, for example the Hungarians or random Malta accounts and cross checked their stats. Nothing interesting there.


Exactly.

I would be pretty sad if it turned out that Fedorzaysev was a bot....

Pretty disgusting if its true and I could see it happening

True, but look at the similarities between the accounts in very specific areas - and the equal patterns.
I mean, we already know 7-8 accounts have been banned, confirmed by Stars, and now we are looking into a group of players (FedorZ, Seregaxx and Samanta81 not included) that have almost identical stats to the banned bots... What is the chance, that 10 guys plays with exact same bet/checking pattern postflop within a 2% frequency on 21/25 stats over that sample?

Something smells fishy...

seems like the most plausible explanation so far.

Thanks for the work, by the way.


Just to understand you correctly: the banned players have exactly the same postflop stats as the currently suspected players?

So basically, in the thread I learnt.

1. The stone nut +ev way to create a botring gto time/love machine is get it tilt x% of the time. And everyone will think gto time/love machine is human.

2. If a person has gone to the length of programming bots, hiring people to operate them, there's no way they would work on bot : operator ratio higher than 1:1..(wtf?) cause obv if you could just work 9-5 running a bot, surely you would just play the games, and not operate say 4 bots per an operator.

Seriously guys, challenge everything, anything is possible. Where money is involved, always follow the numbers over instinct.

Also there are at least two players on Ipoker plo200-400 who are either one of the mentioned players or part of the group with same/very similar postflop stats and similar amount of playing volume. Not sure if I should post the nicks as long as nothing is confirmed here as I don't want to fling dirt at potentially innocent players (and Ipoker will not give a **** anyway, I guess) but maybe a valuable fact as well.

Yes Ipoker is another topic, which would be ok to touch in the future...iirc multiple accouunts on plo50 have been banned couple of months ago because of running a bot in the background and ipoker is very good for these bots.

Yes, they have the same postflop stats, that is why I linked the other thread in my OP. I have posted screenshots of a total of 10 accounts. Seven of them are still up and running, and 3 are already banned (BOOTLEGGER, IPushmyPrius, DRNKStud) but were never mentioned by Oink in the other thread and that is why I brought them up here. The 7 banned accounts from Oink&Grethe thread are also all banned. That gives a total of 17 accounts that have extremely similar postflop stats.

I have conducted further research using my own HEM database, and came up with 2 stat combos that are very rare amongst winning regs but are shared by all 6 bot like accounts in my DB. Those stats are BB Agg=Overall Agg and 3bet=sqz. I couldnt find a single winning regular that has both of those pairs equal, that is other then the 6 bot like accounts where its 6 out of 6. I have described it here http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...3&postcount=24

I could run this test only on 6 out of 17 accounts, because I dont datamine and have only hands I accumulated during my own play.

I asked here for help from someone who has a large DB of hands played against the other accounts, details here http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0&postcount=40

Well its possible, but i would be shocked .

Can't send you a pm, can send you hands of those accounts, how to get in touch with you?

I can confirm exactly 4 on IPoker. They are probably all mentioned players but most likely not seregaxx.

2 of them stopped playing by end of april though but I am pretty sure we will see within a month or two which accounts they are playing now. They are pretty easy to spot as they have same aggression frequencies on flop/turn/river and same wts (differs within 1 or 2 percent) and some even more unique stats that nobody else plays (I won´t name those stats here as it is still possible that we have a "false positive" and it would influence people´s play [against them] a lot and it makes them easy to detect in future if they change accounts {just in case})

Based on the info we have i think the chance that they use some kind of Software is way higher than the bot story.
Anyway both versions make me very sad honestly.

Appreciate but no need to send me anything. All you need to do is prepare and post such screenshots, I reckon you will figure out how to do them.



BB Agg=overall Agg and 3bet=sqz

We have all the other postflop stats that can be found on the so called Russian PTR, apart from the ones here which I believe are very helpful for establishing an additional link as explained earlier in post http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...3&postcount=24


I really dont know if those bots do the screen scraping, calculations and click the buttons or if they do only the scraping and and calculations and require a human operator to avoid detection and crack a joke in chat every now and then. Cant help any further here.

Agreed. Its just like how much worse does it need to get, and does it ever get better or what. online poker went to a pile of ****, when it could be soo much more in the right hands. like google, or apple. pipedreams, lol.

I see. The numbers tell me a very different story. Is it possible that a legit grinder sold or rented his account to someone else? Starting to speculate now and I promised I will stick to facts and numbers.

I have contributed everything I could and I am pretty much done here. Please keep posting guys and try to look for those bots on other networks, potbet is doing great so far. Happy hunting!

Schwein, have you informed PokerStars of your suspicions?

One of my buddies did. I took some time before coming and posting here to give them a bit of head start. If anyone feels like informing them as well, be my guest.

just wanted to add a screenshot that shows the unique stats they play (unbalanced hyperaggressive in some spots postflop). DB was filtered for regulars and players listed top-bottom by these 2 specific stats. The yellow markings are the 4 IPokernicks mentioned. DB is filtered for regulars on Stars and Ipoker

Is it wise to post here which stats help you detect suspicious accounts ?

Someone who wrote bot which can win so much must be enough smart to correct it in new version

Comparing and posting here these 20 stats from PTR are ok, it would be hard to change so many of them.

But here were mentioned 2 pairs of stats which someone said are very rare for players to be almost the same . I think it would be better if it were not public.

A couple of us messaged Stars about these guys last year (noticed that alot of their stats were basically identical etc...); we got blown off.

I started a running list of some people I thought were suspicious (I'm sure many of them aren't, but I basically threw in anyone from that area of the world that had suspicious stats loosely planning to do an in depth comparison to which I never got around).

Anyway, here's the list.... like I said I'm sure many of these guys are completely innocent but posting it all on the off chance it may be of help.
FedorZaysev
Samanta81
seregaxx
bagrovui
imissfender
ipushmyprius
tatar-kyzy
yoo4
YouSoNaive
N@T@L@T
Fifa74ever
BOOTTLEGGER
emper0r92 (Belarus)
Susaanin
FataMorganax
Flash_ua (ukraine)
gantenbien29
GosuDiac
PushMeSlowly
BcexnopByH
z81ima
ponkrat18
jnsan1
HorticAUS
jansan1
grystno
pokerbanderu
MIB2121
Kot_Spartak

I don't think Yoo4 is a bot, he chats regularly and sometimes have a conversations with a few regs.

I also don't think pushmeslowly is a bot, he frequently makes homophobic remarks to me.