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Old 06-10-2015, 04:06 PM   #626
kutty2
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Just my 2c:

I think Pokerstars should absolutely figure out some sort of compensation to pay out the regulars totaling everything it seems they raked from the botters when the dust has been settled.

If these figures turn out to be accurate, then these botters have had a major detrimental impact on the bank accounts and possible mental and emotional bank accounts of tons of low-mid stakes regs who have been working to make an honest living on this site. It's quite a shame, and the least Pokerstars could do would be to stand behind their product and figure out a way to re-distribute the rake they profited from not catching these bots in time. It's a little something called integrity.
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Old 06-10-2015, 04:34 PM   #627
sebkrol18
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbt View Post
You'll get wrong results:





Check yours

Yeah, EV is showed for every hands with bot but not for alli-ns vs bot that makes a difference

I doubt if there is a way to filter for all-ins vs bots only, and then check how we run vs them
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Old 06-10-2015, 04:39 PM   #628
Kyyberi
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Probably the best way to solve the problem is to give poker software access to monitor what the computer is doing. I don't know **** about this stuff, but it's hard to figure out any other way to prevent automated collusion. But even with that, could it be possible to use screen scraping with another computer that is watching the stream of the original play? If that is possible, then there aren't a lot of ways to prevent it.
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Old 06-10-2015, 04:44 PM   #629
Dr.FatCat
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
But even with that, could it be possible to use screen scraping with another computer that is watching the stream of the original play?
Unfortunately yes, that can be done
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Old 06-10-2015, 04:53 PM   #630
Pastafiore
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Im saying again that ppl should read this thread trough before posting here, there is again old no brainer/ already obivous stuff on ~50% lastest messages. Ppl who are not beating plo propably or havent read this thread shoud no comment because it just makes everything way harder In this case.
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Old 06-10-2015, 05:03 PM   #631
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyyberi View Post
Probably the best way to solve the problem is to give poker software access to monitor what the computer is doing. I don't know **** about this stuff, but it's hard to figure out any other way to prevent automated collusion. But even with that, could it be possible to use screen scraping with another computer that is watching the stream of the original play? If that is possible, then there aren't a lot of ways to prevent it.
Yeah that is the go to method if you want to emulate a human playing. hijacking the inputs and outputs. If pokerstars installed their own type of trojan they would be able to Turing test what's going on on the computer but I doubt they'd be able to detect if the mouse/keyboard and screen had been hijacked. The botters would now have to emulate a human completely by surfing the web, chatting and such, but I doubt they'd do that ? Heck they didn't even play any tournaments with their bots which is a big red light. How can you crush PLO 200 for 10bb/100 in 1-2 years and not even play 1 single plo scoop.
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Old 06-10-2015, 05:17 PM   #632
Dandan160808
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

They get free $5200 WCOOP ticket when at SN+ level and I expect probably a scoop if SN+ before that but none of these Bots have played a tournament ! I can't see them being allowed to trade a free $5200 tourney ticket.

On compensation. The amount these particular alleged bots have stolen is equal to sponsoring Ronaldo for one year and that's just one sponsor!
So I hope they do the right thing and compensate all those who have played against these bots for the past year only. The security aspect is down to pokerstars whether they do or don't catch the bots and make a loss. AMAYA WAS PUT ON the Nasdaq and the shares doubled in price before they even reached the trading floor and then doubled again so a multi billion dollar business should have the best security software and team in the world and one sponsorship of the Likes of Ronaldo would pay for a whole new bot and collision spotting team with software and new brains on board.
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Old 06-10-2015, 05:56 PM   #633
KrachBummEnte
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Yeah that is the go to method...
ffs people stop giving botters information on how to stay under the radar. edit this post asap
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Old 06-10-2015, 05:58 PM   #634
alexo18
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Players pay rake to get a service , one of them is for maintaining a good integrity in the game that has already been violated (several times).
Amaya , WSOP, etc should be responsible for letting cheaters get away with their intentions.
As mentioned before , the minimun they should refund money is money confiscated + money raked.
Also for players is such a difficult spot , where i think a really good way to pur pressure on Amaya is making this as public as we can so fun players get scared of getting cheated and stop depositing. But at the same time that mean all people that makes a living out of this get in a ****ty spot.

Between a rock and a hard place.

Amaya should review their ToS and their security team, anything that is bad for poker economy will hurt them most in the long run.

PM me if I can help in the investigation.
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:13 PM   #635
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I have talked a bit about the links of this PLO botting ring with banned bots from NLHE in posts #390 and #397.

The guy I really want to see banned ASAP is FedorZaysev. He was playing in 2013-14 on NLHE tables with a style super similar to 2 banned botters D33XTR and Iddqd55. There are only a few big winners from NLHE that stopped playing and FedorZaysev happens to be really similar to the ones that got banned.




Fedor is beyond any doubt part of the PLO botting ring. Look for the screenshot from OP.




Additionally he has this super weird stat which is shared by all the botters, the one I shared with PS botting team only.

He also shares the same really weird Agg and 3bet/sqz tendencies which are shared by all the PLO botters.



And one more thing. I was talking here https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=608 about how a GTO based bot would be pretty balanced in all spots and never overfold. Those are Fedor stats for the 4 discussed spots, and they happen to be in line with Samanta81 and all the other guys.



Its very likely that Fedor was botting NLHE for over a year and then moved over to PLO where he is already botting for over a year. If 2+2 ever plans to introduce an award for the most accomplished botter it has to FedorZaysev.

Last edited by Schwein; 06-10-2015 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:21 PM   #636
napsus
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

do you guys think this issue should get more media publicity/coverage or should it go under the radar?
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:21 PM   #637
jas
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Fedor recently began playing 1/2 zoom which is what I play and his stats are not similar to the bots at all. He has a cbet of lower than 40% and his miss cb and fold to turn bet ip is 78%.

He's obviously making an effort to play different.
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:26 PM   #638
Igor Heran
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Hi all, i play midstakes PLO.

I absolutely agree with alexo18 and thx OP for doing this thread. That should be as public as possible.

Last edited by Igor Heran; 06-10-2015 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:29 PM   #639
Schwein
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by jas View Post
Fedor recently began playing 1/2 zoom which is what I play and his stats are not similar to the bots at all. He has a cbet of lower than 40% and his miss cb and fold to turn bet ip is 78%.

He's obviously making an effort to play different.
Good thing we have his HH for 2013-May 2015 and so does PokerStars.
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:38 PM   #640
frasky
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Hey, just wanna provide yet another big Thank You to Schwein and everyone else that collaborated on this. You guys are hugely serving (not only) the PLO community.
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:40 PM   #641
Taknikatel
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

What's by far most amusing to me is that i have like half the guys that are supposed to be cheating marked as weaker regs, that make a lot of spewy and - EV plays; friends that play them also have the same reads... I was absoultely shocked in this thread by seeing how some of them are amonst the biggest crushers at the midstakes.

I mean how can you consistently 3bet and call 4bets with utter crap only to always hit the board well enough to stackoff. You have to know some **** other people don't.
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:43 PM   #642
jas
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by napsus View Post
do you guys think this issue should get more media publicity/coverage or should it go under the radar?
several players' computers got hacked a few years ago

Threads about that are here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...ng-ftp-773642/

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ayers-1231581/


I emailed my concerns to pokerstars and full tilt while I was playing the hackers. I told them I thought they could see my cards. My claims were dismissed and Were basically branded as being preposterous. It wasn't suspicious enough for them to investigate that new screen names were crushing winning regulars at a ridiculously high win rate. The above thread was made and only then did the sites start thoroughly investigating. Accounts were banned but no refunds were given. Once the second thread was made communication increased between the security team and the players but nothing happened.

Based on my experiences, it's best to make this as public as possible.
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:04 PM   #643
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Probably better to go under the radar from a regs perspective IF all botters(especially fedor) gets banned.
And btw its probably possible to have the 5200$ ticket transered into just cash with a trick btw.
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:30 PM   #644
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taknikatel View Post
What's by far most amusing to me is that i have like half the guys that are supposed to be cheating marked as weaker regs, that make a lot of spewy and - EV plays; friends that play them also have the same reads... I was absoultely shocked in this thread by seeing how some of them are amonst the biggest crushers at the midstakes.

I mean how can you consistently 3bet and call 4bets with utter crap only to always hit the board well enough to stackoff. You have to know some **** other people don't.
Count me and some more in on that.
I blacked out for a brief moment after seeing 4somniare's results.
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:48 PM   #645
SoMarginal
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

here4busines was another guy that you can look up on russian ptr. Crushing 50nl zoom and never moves up ever. Not sure if he was banned as well
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:57 PM   #646
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taknikatel View Post
What's by far most amusing to me is that i have like half the guys that are supposed to be cheating marked as weaker regs, that make a lot of spewy and - EV plays; friends that play them also have the same reads... I was absoultely shocked in this thread by seeing how some of them are amonst the biggest crushers at the midstakes.

I mean how can you consistently 3bet and call 4bets with utter crap only to always hit the board well enough to stackoff. You have to know some **** other people don't.
+1 here, I'm a reg on plo200z it would tilt me to no end their seemingly relentless aggression and somehow always have it/ get me to fold. It has actually been driving me crazy lately, and I even started to question my own game, this really does make so much sense to me that they are sharing holecards and using blockers to bluff/ make weird preflop plays.

This is actually very scary because just the thought of a group of maybe 4 or 5 friends sharing hole cards with each other via some program with a HUD wouldn't even need bots, would give them a HUGE edge in these games.

Shuffling dealt cards back into the deck before the hand starts only help so much because if "player A" folded XXXX "player B" still knows that "player C" doesn't have XXXX, and can use those cards to bluff on paired boards etc basically DOUBLING your FE. Its better than nothing tho.
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:50 PM   #647
Dandan160808
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Have pokerstars given any firm assurances that they really are investigating this bot Ring?

Fraud on this scale can also involve someone taking a back hander with in pokerstars HQ.

How tempting would it be if you was offered a life changing sum of money to feed a few players some live screen shots?
What's to say when a programmer comes in from work that the knowledge and access to these servers is not passed to a fraud ring in any country? What is the security procedures put in place to monitor a potential 'villain' from within pokerstars?
I've had too many 2 outers & and miracle cards beating me on the last card on the river where I'm 98% to win and lose to trip aces on the river card.

These things do happen & being in the police force until 2004 there are staff their I know are corrupt and I left & am still trying to out these corrupt police officers who in the case I've dealt with are making promotions and extra cash by setting up vip celebs in the UK and using "coaxed victims" who once they are jailed these coaxed victims get compensation from the no win no fee companies plus paper deals and in the case I've been doing for 3 years each 'victim' has got or hope to get at least 500,000 in TV, paper deals as well.
This money is then funnelled back to the instigators and they choose another vip celeb to make false claims against.

My research and investigations will be going in to the royal courts of justice in the UK in a test case where I have 100% evidence of one celeb being set up. Keep your eyes peeled in the next 2 months in the UK and watch as one vip is exonerated and set free from prison.

So fraud does go right up to the very top, including a huge amount in our own government over the years.
Anyone from the UK may pm me only if they have similar concerns of corruption either against them or someone they know has been set up. I'm part of one of the best legal teams in the country as a private investigator using my computing knowledge over 3 decades to catch this large bunch of fraudsters setting people up for crimes they have not committed.

Ok enough about that but fraud and collusion happens everywhere & I hope without logging on that these bots have been suspended until the investigation is finished as they would have already cashed out via visa or whatever and already have their ill gotten gains in their bank accounts.

Fifa is a prime example of "how can you hold the World Cup in 50 degree heat in 2022? They can't move it to the winter as no club is going to loan their players to their national teams at the peak of the football season in winter after paying $10's Millions in wages and purchasing a player so you know something is wrong when quatar gets the World Cup in 2022.

Ok the end of a long story in to corruption and it can't be stopped but only get worse.
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:52 PM   #648
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

^ Pokerfuse: PokerStars Confirms Investigation into PLO Bot Ring Underway
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:56 PM   #649
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Excellent. Ty
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Old 06-10-2015, 09:01 PM   #650
Dandan160808
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Just google this bot ring and every magazine or poker site is running with this bot story so well done OP et al
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