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Old 06-10-2015, 06:29 AM   #576
petteriii
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Cmon guys there must be holecard sharing involved that would be the only reason to make PLO bot.
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:58 AM   #577
Jonnykr
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I have 40k hands by the "bots" All das played myself against them. Non sds are slighty positiv
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:13 AM   #578
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grethe View Post
I've found that WonWhenSawFlop (WWSF) is one of the most clear cut indications. All of the suspected accounts have a WWSF above 50, which is very rare. None of the 10 random different winning midstakes regs I gathered data from have WWSF above 48... I would love to hear/see stats from any regulars with WWSF in the 50-area?

Another stat to look for is the Aggression Frequency (AFQ) over multiple streets, as this pattern in the bots game are soooo aligned. I was comparing some of the stats of the midstakes regs and even guys with very similar styles have overall 8-10% differences - where the bots are all inside a 2-4% interval. This pattern is such a strong indicator, because of the way it is calculated and how big the sample sizes are.

The combination of WTSD og W$SD is also a pretty good indicator.

Finally, knowing dead cards is such a huge advantage in a game where equity runs so close. Over a larger sample knowing 4 dead cards can easily give you 8-10bb/100.


IŽll go ahead and forward the 1.6MM hands ive on them to Schwein and shimmy to let them check even more.

On a sidenote, there are already the first article reagarding this at the pokerpress!
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:34 AM   #579
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

One more appreciation to OP for bringing up the attention to this matter.

Not much to add other than that I think Seakings post makes sense in a way. Why would any of them play on games they cant cheat?

This prolly would not be used to prove anything but its one more of those coincidente among alleged cheaters.
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:50 AM   #580
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Why isn't pokernews picking up a story like this ? It's one of the biggest scandal since UB era and people have to be made aware of this to pressure Stars even more. Stars integrity has been compromised in a big way and they need to act quickly. having the different news site involved is going to pressure them way more than a simple 2p2 thread
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:56 AM   #581
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

The german newssite pokerfirma already wrote about it yesterday
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:57 AM   #582
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

There is a good post by Sh@i'tan in the NVG thread...

"Bots are on stars they have been for years. stars cannot stop them and their game integrity team is beyond incompetent."

And ofc the TOS of Stars should be changed so who breaks it have to be criminal prosecuted (in some cases) and all of the money stolen return to the players efected (even if the money is in the bank) - for that there is some kind of regulation.
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:58 AM   #583
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by apo5tol View Post
Using known dead cards (blockers) in non-allin situations is a LOT more important (and useful) than in allins. I mean we are basing a ton of our decision making process on the 4 possible blockers we have in our hand. Think of what we could do with 8 or 12? The relationship here is not even linear - its exponential!

Its also a lot harder to catch because you arent running above ev at all - you just have a lot more fold equity than you're supposed to in some spots
To test the hypothesis, that there was card sharing, one can compare stats of the "colluders" in two situations:

1) When player is the only "colluder" at the table
2) When he is not the only "colluder" at the table.

If there is collusion, winrate in sit.2 should be higher.

Also it is interesting, how often does collusion possibility occur?
And whether "colluders" have positive winrate in sit.1? If it is positive, then the bot is winning per se, and it is very sad.

Last edited by hoztasun; 06-10-2015 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:03 AM   #584
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

At minimum I dont think PokerStars should be able to profit of cheaters. So the rake any type of cheating account make should be redistributed to the players that had to play with them. After all part of the reason we pay rake is to get honest games.

PokerStars likely should stop the suspect accounts to play on same tables just as the chinese stud players.

Thanks for the people making this thread / work.
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:03 AM   #585
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by TrollAccount View Post


IŽll go ahead and forward the 1.6MM hands ive on them to Schwein and shimmy to let them check even more.

On a sidenote, there are already the first article reagarding this at the pokerpress!
I am flying london - lax tomorrow so will have to wait till early next week. Should have plenty of time, even on holiday, to get it done as won't be able to play any poker for next 3 weeks

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Old 06-10-2015, 08:15 AM   #586
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaKing View Post
It should be noted that none of the suspected players in the OP aside from Samanta81 and seregaxx (afaik the two players who people are suggesting probably aren't bots) have any history of playing MTTs aside from what appears to be the Supernova quarterly 1 million dollar freerolls. I'm pretty sure every single small/midstakes PLO account that has a known player behind it has at least some MTT history whether it be playing WCOOP/SCOOP or the occasional Sunday mtt session.

FedorZaysev
http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...34882.html?t=2

4somniare
http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...342D1.html?t=2

emper0r92
http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...ml?t=8&scp=456

BOOTTLEGGER
No MTTs tracked so no OPR page

ImissFender
http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...ml?t=8&scp=342

SusaaNiN
http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...ml?t=8&scp=570

------------

N@T@L@T = not a bot
http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...20754.html?t=2
this is a very very good point ... as I was about to write, that I am 99,9% certain that seregaxx and Samanta81 are not bots, then also seeing that these other "players" have virtually no MTT history, makes it almost obvious that these are indeed bots
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:20 AM   #587
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Thumbs up Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

PS security department hasn't failed, as many ppl itt suggest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oink View Post
Id like to add for clarification, that all the suspected players/bots have been gone since before we emailed Stars.
obv the bots schwein found, weren't banned before but some are now. so please help him finding other bots and if you want to express you opinion about bots, online poker and everything else, pls visit the nvg thread to unload your thoughts.

also stop posting BS that PS wants this bots b/c they grind much and generate rake .... the potential bots are heavy winners, which means the cash out faster than others, which means money can't be raked fast enough! also consider, that there was a thread last year, where a reg w/ heavy volume was banned and didn't get an explanation for it ... so thinking PS needs this bots, is just plain stupid.

also a note about the 'hole card sharing' ... it's really hard to separate the facts from the fiction itt, but as far as i understood this i just a theory and so far only shimmy tried to find evidence for this

Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmy View Post
ok, I now have a sql query to extract hand histories from a PT4 db where 2 or more of these players are on the same table.

only finds 1813 hands in my 1m hand 2015 db, but will run it on my historical db later and create some new databases.

any use to anyone else?
there was also the argument, that the bots shoudl run over EV, with shared HC, which was kind interesting



EDIT: another thing about the 'if they weren't bot, they would defend themselves' theory .... just because for you 2+2 is the centre of the poker world, it doesn't mean it's for russian players as well. the russian poker community have their own site. also, a programmer could always claim whatsoever in a thread, basically it's the same false logic, that accounts, who chat, aren't bots
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:25 AM   #588
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by shimmy View Post
I am flying london - lax tomorrow so will have to wait till early next week. Should have plenty of time, even on holiday, to get it done as won't be able to play any poker for next 3 weeks

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hopefully youŽve it early next week i started the dropboxupload 2hrs ago and they still tell me its 9hrs to go...
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Old 06-10-2015, 08:45 AM   #589
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by krmont22 View Post
Made an alias of all the bots. They won 7200 from me running 31 buyins over EV vs me. Thank god I got 36 dollar refund.
That can't be right since vs player reports don't have EV stats in them (both pt & hm).

You must have been looking at the wrong tab
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Old 06-10-2015, 09:19 AM   #590
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I have been playing yesterday my reg OFFLINE PLO cash games and one player at the table mentioned this thread about online poker BOTs and stuff.
Since I don't play Online poker almost ever, I have been reading 2+2 USERless everytime but this thread forces me to register and write couple of sentences.

I've read the whole thread yesterday and seems like there is some kind of strategy that those guys are following or automated machinery of some sort.

When I started learning poker I just followed some charts and stuff which made my game kinda BOT-like-style, because I did what chart says and played almost the same every time (with balancing of course)
so... could it be that its not as bad as it sounds and its only special strategy that they follow and therefore they have these stats? Because I cannot believe that PS is allowing automated players to be at the tables, this is just insane and it can be a huge issue for them!
Of course I don't play online because I don't have enough confidence in any poker room so I'am quite skeptical about all poker rooms.

I can understand that they (PokerStars) may use their OWN BOTS to boost their profit up but allowing other people profit from it, no way!

So guys what do you think?

Last edited by Kennington; 06-10-2015 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 06-10-2015, 09:30 AM   #591
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastafiore View Post
there is way more than only those matches im trying to explain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O38Kj6KZlt4
This video needs more love

Spoiler:
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Old 06-10-2015, 09:51 AM   #592
Dandan160808
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Pokerstars needs to make an official statement on this issue now before it turns in to a UB scandal. So imagine that the sample we have is from $200-1000 PLO $1/2 - $3/6 then I'm damn sure the same Is happening in greater volume at the lower stakes. And then the same can be said for every type of game and format across the board.

The best bot spotters are ex-hackers or police surveillance IT experts & I spent 5 years working in this environment. In the UK we have GCHQ which have brilliant mathematicians and statisticians and when they. Leave these jobs many worked at the same place as I did in the biomathematics dept which included some of the best statisticians and programmers in the world. They are still all based at the bbsrcc and this sort of thing they could do very easily.
If pokerstars truely wants to clean up its act I'll point them in the right direction. If not I'll ask ex colleagues to try solve what's really going on.

It's not acceptable for this cheating to continue and if you did this sort of thing in a casino then it's an insta ban even if the dealers are getting good tips & rake for the casino.
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Old 06-10-2015, 10:18 AM   #593
krmont22
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbt View Post
That can't be right since vs player reports don't have EV stats in them (both pt & hm).

You must have been looking at the wrong tab
you can add vs player in filters and look at any tab you want
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Old 06-10-2015, 10:31 AM   #594
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by TrollAccount View Post
hopefully youŽve it early next week i started the dropboxupload 2hrs ago and they still tell me its 9hrs to go...

9 hours to go? Are you up loading every players stats using just GPRS to upload? Or are you using broadband or portable broadband? Drop box is also monitored by the FBI. It's something I would not use. We have ismi stingrays monitoring our mobile phones from false masts so just think how easy it is getting to infiltrate any system.

Can't wait to see your end results.
Best wishes.
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Old 06-10-2015, 10:35 AM   #595
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

There is zero mtt history for the suspected UK player moxyyy either

http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...5BDA1.html?t=2
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Old 06-10-2015, 10:37 AM   #596
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by TrollAccount View Post


IŽll go ahead and forward the 1.6MM hands ive on them to Schwein and shimmy to let them check even more.

On a sidenote, there are already the first article reagarding this at the pokerpress!
If the data on russian PTR is valid I've got enough data to make WWSF a significant parameter for making a judgement.

Fwiw I have forwarded all my data to Pokerstars.
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Old 06-10-2015, 10:38 AM   #597
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandan160808 View Post
9 hours to go? Are you up loading every players stats using just GPRS to upload? Or are you using broadband or portable broadband? Drop box is also monitored by the FBI. It's something I would not use. We have ismi stingrays monitoring our mobile phones from false masts so just think how easy it is getting to infiltrate any system.

Can't wait to see your end results.
Best wishes.
Wat?

TrollAccount is uploading 1.6m hand histories of the players in question, i will then download them and do the analysis to check if we can find anything related to holecard sharing.

Feel free to let the FBI know, but i think they might be a bit busy with FIFA at the moment

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Old 06-10-2015, 11:20 AM   #598
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by wallysnooper View Post
There is zero mtt history for the suspected UK player moxyyy either

http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...5BDA1.html?t=2
I think at this point, all the things that these accounts and others might be doing that isn't in line with what a "real" reg would be doing or something that gives them away shouldn't be posted publicly anymore.


I got a message suggesting a skype group be created for 100% legit regs communicating somewhere private about any cheating stuff?
Just feels to me by discussing all this stuff where any cheats can read every word is not a good way to counter it in the long run...

Def agree that is a good idea. If you want to be in the group get in touch with me on here or any place else

Last edited by ChicagoJoey; 06-10-2015 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 06-10-2015, 11:28 AM   #599
jas
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I recommend everyone contacts poker news about this story

http://www.pokernews.com/contact.htm

Based on experiences with pokerstars security team in the past, doing this will make pokerstars take this more seriously.
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Old 06-10-2015, 11:31 AM   #600
Dandan160808
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by shimmy View Post
Wat?

TrollAccount is uploading 1.6m hand histories of the players in question, i will then download them and do the analysis to check if we can find anything related to holecard sharing.

Feel free to let the FBI know, but i think they might be a bit busy with FIFA at the moment

Sent from my GT-I9195 using 2+2 Forums

Ah I'm kidding you with you. Yes the FBI spy on drop box. GCHQ spy on all Brits and the police use Riga to monitor all types of data if approved by a British Detective chief inspector or above. This is all fact but irellevent to this topic. The only reason I state this sort of stuff is that if anyone was not technically minded in mathematics to at least degree level or above or not a brilliant software developer With lots of experience then I'd say 95% of people on here would not really know where to start with this analysis & let alone understand it.
I've been in the computing & electronics & mathematics sector for over 25 years and without waffling on their is so many holes in most computer programs, I'd be very surprised if cheating was not going on. What type of extra lengths does pokerstars go to to detect anything from spyware, data loggers and Trojan horse type viruses on their own software? Pokerstars like us are in a no win situation with fraud as their is so many other things that their techies will be checking on along with these amazing bot stats. I think online poker can only do damage limitation as they won't beat all the cheats. The day will come where you could use like 'Twitch' plus fingerprint recognition software or facial login recognition for every account. The technology is here now and at least we can put a face with passport ID for every username.
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