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Old 06-09-2015, 09:59 PM   #526
lvanhoe
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

While I think this is obviously very sick, there's one question that might be asked already but lingers in my mind: these bots seem to do something very, very well. Shouldn't all regs be like "wow, perhaps I should incorporate that into my game"?

I'm just amazed some bot programmer found a way to beat PLO online in a way that none of the really good human regs have ever figured out.
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Old 06-09-2015, 10:17 PM   #527
CrazyRussian
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I am playing on MDUczuczukwe acc, and pls pastafiore use your brain before you point someone out. This is not my fault that you dont understand how i am winning, but its preaty unlikely that i am using any bot or i am cards sharing with someone else if i was starting plenty of 1k-2kzoom games at the end of last year and even some 5k at the begining of this. I also played some HU hands vs regs so according to those arguments you can focuse on improving your game insted of me/
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Old 06-09-2015, 10:34 PM   #528
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by CrazyRussian View Post
I am playing on MDUczuczukwe acc, and pls pastafiore use your brain before you point someone out. This is not my fault that you dont understand how i am winning, but its preaty unlikely that i am using any bot or i am cards sharing with someone else if i was starting plenty of 1k-2kzoom games at the end of last year and even some 5k at the begining of this. I also played some HU hands vs regs so according to those arguments you can focuse on improving your game insted of me/
y im very sorry for that, it drived me crazy/paranoid for a while when i found this thread because i had spotted many of those bots long time ago and pokerstars did nothing for that. it was just confusing for me that you owned me manytimes so bad in zoom and i did not think you were very good player. i was wrong.

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I'm just amazed some bot programmer found a way to beat PLO online in a way that none of the really good human regs have ever figured out.
i dont think that is possible, if that was true why he is not playing highstakes as regular? there could be something else we havent noticed/afraid to say.


----------------------------------------

being a bit over paranoid here in this kind of thing is not wrong imo. there was one who was trying to connect me in that botring also. i dont mind of that and i assume every1 wants all this bots to get busted.
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Old 06-09-2015, 11:03 PM   #529
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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not agree if the bots don't do card sharing this is v scary, if they do it seems like that could be the only reason they're winning - you plo guys seem to be getting it in a lot
Yep, if they're already winning at this rate without card sharing, PLO 6max is doomed.
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Old 06-09-2015, 11:07 PM   #530
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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if that was true why he is not playing highstakes as regular?
Who said he isn't?

A winning high stakes reg sounds like the most likely person. Working together with a programmer and with people to operate the bots using his instructions. Random people with no experience playing online poker don't have the skills to crush winning regs.
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Old 06-09-2015, 11:08 PM   #531
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by lvanhoe View Post
While I think this is obviously very sick, there's one question that might be asked already but lingers in my mind: these bots seem to do something very, very well. Shouldn't all regs be like "wow, perhaps I should incorporate that into my game"?
It's complicated by the question as to whether they're colluding/card sharing or not. If they're not, then their strategy is worth studying.
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Old 06-09-2015, 11:22 PM   #532
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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This thread should have never been brought to open public and surely not to NVG etc.
So much offtopic and low content ITT, it's sickening in a case like this.
Maybe keep future investigations private and only add people who either play with these bots on a regular basis or can help with the analysis. This here leads to nothing.
It might make the thread harder to read but if you want PokerStars to act, public awareness is exactly what you want. Nothing gets their attention like a massive NVG thread full of people flipping out. There will also be some people who join in that actually can help that never would have known otherwise.
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Old 06-09-2015, 11:28 PM   #533
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Who said he isn't?

A winning high stakes reg sounds like the most likely person. Working together with a programmer and with people to operate the bots using his instructions. Random people with no experience playing online poker don't have the skills to crush winning regs.
i dont belive in this. there is a human behid the screens(following his bots moves game or something like that) at least 90% of time in normal tables for example. that means he have no time to play highstakes, and howmany highstakes reg plays his aas off on ~everyday of the year? if he has coached the programmer, why this programmer does not he play highstakes also? sofar there have not spotted bots from highstakes who play ~24/7.

and i think highstakes players does have enough money already to not bother/ even start discussing about that with somekind of programmer, who most likely have to be very close guy for highstakes player already. or do you think any highstakes player starts even think about this kind of thing with some random guy after all stuff highstakes players have got cheated in past?
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Old 06-09-2015, 11:56 PM   #534
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

i dont like to say that but "clues" sofar says those bots are coming from house programmers or something like that. another opinion is that there is just a smart ~random guy against us imo. i dont belive in that highstakes thing at all. this are only huntches.
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Old 06-10-2015, 12:23 AM   #535
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

its like 99.999% certain bots are card sharing because its obvious they are programmed to consider who else is a bot (and donk off huge vs fellow bots). sharing cards would be trivial to program and its a huge edge. they must be doing it
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Old 06-10-2015, 01:20 AM   #536
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

You guys need to start combining your hands against these guys in a database or ask Russian PTR to do it and detect how well they are running over expected value all-in...

If they are running over expected value all-in, it suggests that they are sharing hole cards because they know which cards are already dead.

Also, this is does a lot to explain that "you saw them tilt" or that "they are just running good. "... they could be playing hands in situations that are +EV because they know 4 or 8 dead cards that you don't. Or they could be playing sub optimally in some situations because the bot isn't that strong while making up for it by card sharing in others.

Considering that

1. They play in the same games
2. They are crushing
3. Very unorthodox style of play

It is overwhelmingly likely they are sharing hole cards.
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Old 06-10-2015, 01:21 AM   #537
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Also, saying "I chatted with him therefore" is laughably stupid.
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Old 06-10-2015, 01:23 AM   #538
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Playing high stakes increases chance of detection, bankroll requirements and there might not be enough volume.
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Old 06-10-2015, 01:39 AM   #539
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Pastafiore View Post
i dont belive in this. there is a human behid the screens(following his bots moves game or something like that) at least 90% of time in normal tables for example. that means he have no time to play highstakes, and howmany highstakes reg plays his aas off on ~everyday of the year? if he has coached the programmer, why this programmer does not he play highstakes also? sofar there have not spotted bots from highstakes who play ~24/7.

and i think highstakes players does have enough money already to not bother/ even start discussing about that with somekind of programmer, who most likely have to be very close guy for highstakes player already. or do you think any highstakes player starts even think about this kind of thing with some random guy after all stuff highstakes players have got cheated in past?
pastafiore, i've read a lot of your posts in this thread and it sounds like you are just talking out of your ass.

a med-high stakes reg could easily talk through spots, teach a programmer how a good player plays, then take a percentage of the ongoing profits and happily play his own games. while you are right someone needs to be watching these bots, it doesn't have to be the plo expert. in fact it makes no sense for it to be the expert. the programmer doesn't have to become a knowledgeable grinder just b/c someone teaches him how to program bots. THAT'S WHY HE IS PROGRAMMING BOTS, SO HE DOESN'T HAVE TO PLAY.
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Old 06-10-2015, 01:40 AM   #540
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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detect how well they are running over expected value all-in


even if they did not run much above ev proves absolutely nothing(not verymuch above sofar?).

im still saying there is a human behind the bots who seems to be extremely careful and smart. it is obivous he knows that he gets waaaaay faster busted if he runs lot above ev in allin situations also. it is extremely likely he is using blockers (known dead cards) in non-allin situations way more than in allin situations because that. many people here is thinking like there is a bot behind the "bots".
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:02 AM   #541
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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pastafiore, i've read a lot of your posts in this thread and it sounds like you are just talking out of your ass.

a med-high stakes reg could easily talk through spots, teach a programmer how a good player plays, then take a percentage of the ongoing profits and happily play his own games. while you are right someone needs to be watching these bots, it doesn't have to be the plo expert. in fact it makes no sense for it to be the expert. the programmer doesn't have to become a knowledgeable grinder just b/c someone teaches him how to program bots. THAT'S WHY HE IS PROGRAMMING BOTS, SO HE DOESN'T HAVE TO PLAY.
it is stil way too far to be true, still possibility for this is less than 1% imo.

player who has ~lot of money back already and is winning much alltime, why he suddenly does risk so much by trying to make money by using bots, wich cannot be even close sure to success on beginning this huge project.

and there is no way there is somekind of "thing" in that game what brings you this much more edge, and those bots are playing bad their hands allthe time.

even if they did not run much above ev proves absolutely nothing

i have also another "evidence" for that thing wich is ~99,999% proof but i wont say it here now.

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THAT'S WHY HE IS PROGRAMMING BOTS, SO HE DOESN'T HAVE TO PLAY.
sitting in front of screens and doing ~nothing is more comfortable insted of playing by yourself?
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:03 AM   #542
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Pastafiore View Post
even if they did not run much above ev proves absolutely nothing(not verymuch above sofar?).

im still saying there is a human behind the bots who seems to be extremely careful and smart. it is obivous he knows that he gets waaaaay faster busted if he runs lot above ev in allin situations also. it is extremely likely he is using blockers (known dead cards) in non-allin situations way more than in allin situations because that. many people here is thinking like there is a bot behind the "bots".
I agree with Pastafiore, specially bold quote.
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:08 AM   #543
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Using known dead cards (blockers) in non-allin situations is a LOT more important (and useful) than in allins. I mean we are basing a ton of our decision making process on the 4 possible blockers we have in our hand. Think of what we could do with 8 or 12? The relationship here is not even linear - its exponential!

Its also a lot harder to catch because you arent running above ev at all - you just have a lot more fold equity than you're supposed to in some spots
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:10 AM   #544
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Using known dead cards (blockers) in non-allin situations is a LOT more important (and useful) than in non-alling situations. I mean we are basing a ton of our decision based on the 4 possible blockers we have in our hand. Think of what we could do with 8 or 12? The relationship here is not even linear - its exponential!

Its also a lot harder to catch because you arent running above ev at all - you just have a lot more fold equity than you're supposed to in some spots
This.

It is also good to mention that all the suspected bots plays way more agroo then the legit winning regs at the same stakes.(they can do that very well w/ the knowledge of 4/8 extra blockers)
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:13 AM   #545
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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you just have a lot more fold equity than you're supposed to in some spots
dont forget that you also have nuts with K-high flush way more many times for example.
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:20 AM   #546
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Pastafiore View Post
dont forget that you also have nuts with K-high flush way more many times for example.
yep, and your A7 is effectively the nuts on 77T if you know 2 tens are dead. And these are just really simple examples we can come up with from the top of our heads right away. If we really took the time and analyzed the situation our edge could become Huge!
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:21 AM   #547
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Knowing xtra 4-8cards makes pretty easy to win in NonSd. Anyway Are these guys winning in nonsd instead of sd?
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:22 AM   #548
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Pastafiore View Post
...it is extremely likely he is using blockers (known dead cards) in non-allin situations way more than in allin situations because that...
That´s exactly what I am thinking. In the past most card sharing bot rings were busted by analysing the AI situations and looking for abnormalities in EV.

Instead we should start scanning our databases for big bluffs made by the bots without the crucial blocker in their hand.
If pokerstars can help us confirming that the blocker card has been folded by another bot account, this would be real proof of card sharing.
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:33 AM   #549
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Pastafiore View Post
it is stil way too far to be true, still possibility for this is less than 1% imo.
rofl at you're meaningless assumptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastafiore View Post
player who has ~lot of money back already and is winning much alltime, why he suddenly does risk so much by trying to make money by using bots
the pro risks nothing. he teaches a guy how to program bots. if bot guy gets caught and fingers the pro for helping, the pro simply says he had nothing to do with this guys scheme. furthermore he has done nothing wrong. he told a guy how to play PLO


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sitting in front of screens and doing ~nothing is more comfortable insted of playing by yourself?
yes, doing nothing > grinding out PLO racking ur brain calculating percentages and making decisions that a bot can make in 0.00001 seconds. especially if the guy is not inherently a poker player, just a programmer trying to exploit the poker world. for you to think that grinding > doing nothing is stupid.

and again, ur assuming things. buddy could be there reading, watching TV, learning how to invest his stolen money in the stock market.

90% of the stuff you have posted in this thread is meaningless assumptions.
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Old 06-10-2015, 02:43 AM   #550
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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90% of the stuff you have posted in this thread is meaningless assumptions.
your assumptions are more meaningless anyway, i think people are not that slow here i have to even answer longer than this.
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