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Old 06-09-2015, 06:23 PM   #501
kingofqueens
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

bots will destroy online poker. They will get better and better to the point its hard to beat them and people will go back to casino. You also have collusion as well. Its hard to get a fair game on a ring table anymore.
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Old 06-09-2015, 06:25 PM   #502
yoyoplo
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Cant believe they are still playing. Also trying to look more legit by playing people hu is so lol.
And no word from any of the alleged botters in these thread yet.

Cant we get Ike and/or Lex Veldhuis to look into this together with the stars security team, since the security team as of now doesnt seem to have much knowledge of plo.
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Old 06-09-2015, 06:45 PM   #503
getthatmoney
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Theres a thread in NVG... Can all low-content posts please be posted there, and this thread reserved for high-content posts?

Maybe a mod could move lc/nc posts to NVG?
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Old 06-09-2015, 06:46 PM   #504
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Herrigel View Post
At regular tables I start to devlop bot spotting skills. 1 bot, I stay, 2 bots, I leave...
you know the state of this is very grim when you have to set yourself that type of rules
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Old 06-09-2015, 06:59 PM   #505
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Jeans89 is probably the guy who could give his opinion on all the stats given here about bots & collusion as most of his online winning income is from PLO. Ike is still learning PLO and like Tom Dwan is a human calculator!
Jeans89 is the Online PLO expert I'd ask to give his opinion.
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:06 PM   #506
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Many of the posters in this thread are highly qualified to analyse the data and stats, no need to be bringing random nosebleeds reg names into this.
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:08 PM   #507
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by omnishakira View Post
any reactions from pokerstars rep so far?

can stars sue them?

If these bots are from anywhere other than the Isle of Man I doubt stars can sue any of them. I suspect they have cashed out to the max and will continue playing with a smaller bankroll until they should be suspended whilst investigated. It would be almost impossible to sue a Russian or Estonian poker player/Bot as things seem not too good with Russia and the other European countries including the U.S.

Should be confiscation and a formula including the rake they have paid stars to be paid back to those players in a not so complicated mathematical formula. Although easier said than done you will have genuine good regs who have beaten the bots & have taken the money from the bots who stole from other regs so it's a bit of a knock on effect. Let's wait & see what happens.
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:13 PM   #508
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
Many of the posters in this thread are highly qualified to analyse the data and stats, no need to be bringing random nosebleeds reg names into this.

Agree but nice to have a famous pro who has spoken out before when laptops at past EPTs were getting spyware put on their machines until jeans89 pulled up pokerstars security up on this for not taking any of it serious until the Romanian O'Human'O ignat also complained after telling ignat and jeans had the same happen to them. It took two pros to get this noticed.
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:21 PM   #509
Pastafiore
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Dandan160808 View Post
Jeans89 is probably the guy who could give his opinion on all the stats given here about bots & collusion as most of his online winning income is from PLO. Ike is still learning PLO and like Tom Dwan is a human calculator!
Jeans89 is the Online PLO expert I'd ask to give his opinion.

imo best opinios comes from the players who play same tables as bots does. only in this thread is enough evidence to ban all suspects sofar, if pokerstars says something else, part of their people, maybe part of employees are connected in this bot ring. that's only my opinion.

EDIT. maybe my opinion is too heavy word, raw opinion/hunch is better.

and btw jeans played in entraction/igt/b2b network also before it was driven down, and there was cheating/bot suspects also.

Last edited by Pastafiore; 06-09-2015 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:34 PM   #510
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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He is legit.



Its about botting. The card sharing is just a hypothesis. In Grethes DB the banned accounts run 11.8bb above EV over a 110K hands sample while playing with 188 std dev. The likehood of this happening is 1.8684%. Thats pretty small but not a definitive proof (its a 2.4 sigma event).
Can you please elaborate on why this should be the case? Why would a run good be indicative / suggestive of bots?
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:35 PM   #511
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Can you please elaborate on why this should be the case? Why would a run good be indicative / suggestive of bots?
It's due to holecard sharing allowing you to know if your outs are good.
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:42 PM   #512
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
It's due to holecard sharing allowing you to know if your outs are good.
???

Let's say I share cards with you and know my outs are good or bad. Now, how can I turn that into a good run? If my outs are bad, I'd probably fold and that won't make me run above EV, right? If my outs are good, I'd probably stick in and that might make my EV graph look nice, but how can I run above that EV?
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:44 PM   #513
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

such a sick thread

hope all those harmed by this get some substantial refunds
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:44 PM   #514
mela
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Or, were you suggesting that I am getting it in with an equity better than what would appear in the EV graph?
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:48 PM   #515
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by mela View Post
???

Let's say I share cards with you and know my outs are good or bad. Now, how can I turn that into a good run? If my outs are bad, I'd probably fold and that won't make me run above EV, right? If my outs are good, I'd probably stick in and that might make my EV graph look nice, but how can I run above that EV?
If you stick it in on the flop on a heart draw and know 4 black cards are dead from your friends hand, then that will on average make you run over EV at the end of the hand, the EV calculated by your HEM/PT

Either way I think over/under EV due to card removal is a distraction in this case and should not be a point of focus.
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:50 PM   #516
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Yeah I got it, and I agree with your second sentence. Thanks!
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Old 06-09-2015, 08:05 PM   #517
jas
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

How can someone who plays with these bots help?

What should I be looking for in the hands?
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Old 06-09-2015, 08:28 PM   #518
wrsport1015
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

this is obviously a bigger deal in cash games, but i wonder how these bots would fair in mtt poker. does anyone here think people would deploy these bots in mtts over cash games?
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:02 PM   #519
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

This thread should have never been brought to open public and surely not to NVG etc.
So much offtopic and low content ITT, it's sickening in a case like this.
Maybe keep future investigations private and only add people who either play with these bots on a regular basis or can help with the analysis. This here leads to nothing.
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:26 PM   #520
PrinceWilliamOfUK
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by shimmy View Post
I'm sure this couldn't be further from the truth, there would be serious regulatory implications if this was the case. I'm thinking specifically of the UK but surely other countries too.

Let's stop with the conspiracy theories please, Stars obv require a higher burden of proof than we do and these things take time. Of course their detection methods and resources can surely be significantly improved (pasta reported them last year, wtf?!) and it's a huge deal, but they're on the same side as us here.
Not for no reason is the national anthem, of the Isle Of Man, 'Do What You Like' by Take That. 'Shoeshine' Devine, 'Rottweiler' Rutherford, and their ilk are merely tame patsies, blockers protecting Star's/Tilt's autonomy and keeping the tax revenue flowing. And 'nifty' Norma, at the U.K GC can, on occasion, utilise the kind of footwork that seperates the Lionel Messi's from the Shaun Wright-Phillip's.

Regulatory implications

On a more serious note, the poker community owes Schwein, et al, a huge thanks for their painstaking work.
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:27 PM   #521
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by Loctus View Post
Either way I think over/under EV due to card removal is a distraction in this case and should not be a point of focus.
not agree if the bots don't do card sharing this is v scary, if they do it seems like that could be the only reason they're winning - you plo guys seem to be getting it in a lot
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:37 PM   #522
Pastafiore
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by KrachBummEnte View Post
This thread should have never been brought to open public and surely not to NVG etc.
So much offtopic and low content ITT, it's sickening in a case like this.
Maybe keep future investigations private and only add people who either play with these bots on a regular basis or can help with the analysis. This here leads to nothing.
wrong. pokerstars did nothing when few regs inc. me did report part of those bots last year. this is best opinion after that because it did not work with smaller amount of people.
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:41 PM   #523
KrachBummEnte
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Did you report with the evidence which was posted in this thread? Or just speculations back then?
I understand your point, but working everything out in a more private manner (but being open to people with knowledge joining), then presenting to Stars and the public might have been smarter. Programmer is obv. reading this and started to act less suspicious already. Now also everybody involved with programming bots knows how to make them less suspicious.
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:43 PM   #524
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by kaby View Post
not agree if the bots don't do card sharing this is v scary, if they do it seems like that could be the only reason they're winning - you plo guys seem to be getting it in a lot
This.

If the bots can literally destroy midstakes PLO without using card sharing, it's so ****ing scary, if they use card sharing it's bad but less so.
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:47 PM   #525
Pastafiore
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

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Originally Posted by KrachBummEnte View Post
Did you report with the evidence which was posted in this thread? Or just speculations back then?
I understand your point, but working everything out in a more private manner (but being open to people with knowledge joining), then presenting to Stars and the public might have been smarter. Programmer is obv. reading this and started to act less suspicious already. Now also everybody involved with programming bots knows how to make them less suspicious.
you should read this whole thread (again?)

and before you undestand me wrong, im not trying to be an aas, forgive me my bad finglish/english
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