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Old 06-08-2015, 04:12 PM   #301
RLGallday
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by freewilly12 View Post
I don't think country is that big of a tell.
Bot operators have to find identities from all around the world.

(Not the point but even removing squeeze ratio wouldn't give you that color.)
How do you even manage to do that practically? I know you can hide a lot, but Pokerstars can ask to validate identity/personal details, check cash transfer/big deposits etc.

Or even check playing history... if they jumped right into mid stakes/high stakes for example.
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:22 PM   #302
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
That list wasn't supposed to be a statement just to narrow down the field.
Two guys so far who found themselves on the list didn't seem pissed.

If someone on the list wants I can remove them from the screenshot.
They dont necessarily read this thread.

I cant prevent you from making that list. All I say is that imo its wrong and not fair to the players.

OP outed some accounts based on very solid statistical analysis and banned accounts have been outed as well.

The query you made just gives you some aggro accounts. It doesnt even include some of the key stats that were so particular for the banned accounts from PLO100.

Now if you want to run these queries and come up with lists of players you find suspicous, thats fine. I cant stop you from doing that. But now you know that I think its the wrong way to go about it and I dont think your statistical foundation is nearly solid enough.

Edit: And of course the country of origin matters, when all the banned accounts so far has been Russian or Kazahk. That dont mean bots and cheaters cant be german or from UK or Canada. But lets settle down before we accuse anyone and everyone with aggro stats of being bots

Last edited by Oink; 06-08-2015 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:23 PM   #303
TrollAccount
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Hello xxx,

Thank you for contacting PokerStars.

We have forwarded your email to our Game Integrity Team for their review and action. You will receive a response as soon as possible.

Your patience is appreciated, and thank you for playing at PokerStars.

Regards,

Simon ♠
PokerStars Support Team
hope others go ahead and do the same, as more players(esp. respected ones) do it as better i guess.
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:27 PM   #304
freewilly12
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by RLGallday View Post
How do you even manage to do that practically? I know you can hide a lot, but Pokerstars can ask to validate identity/personal details, check cash transfer/big deposits etc.

Or even check playing history... if they jumped right into mid stakes/high stakes for example.
It is pure speculation how many parties is involved with Stars bots. But any bot operation needs a lot of identities. Accounts gets seized and if you have a winning AI you want to put it to work as many times you could.

Jared Bleznick (allegedly) used to multiaccount and was able to play nosebleeds with so many fake identities:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...-more-1354618/

When it comes to deposits and withdrawals there is big thread about hacked Stars account where hackers were able to cash out to a new payment method.
So moving money shouldn't be a big problem even with fake identites.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ility-1518891/
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:29 PM   #305
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Freewilly12. I agree you should stop posting less than complete list of players, this just put more noise in this thread.

OP has posted damning evidence of these account not by cross referencing 3 stats but more like 10-15. The more stats are similar/equal the less likely this should be for non bot persons. 3 just isn't cutting it.
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:31 PM   #306
sebkrol18
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

4somniare is a tricky BOT

$0.50/$1Zoom Pot Limit Omaha Hi
PokerStars
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

Stacks:
UTG T@74 ($126.85) 127bb
UTG+1 Nilis26 ($123) 123bb
CO dr jelmer ($131.31) 131bb
BTN hansixxx ($99) 99bb
SB 4somniare ($104.52) 105bb
BB Hero ($154.55) 155bb

Pre-Flop: (1.50, 6 players) Hero is BB 5 7 8 Q
3 folds, hansixxx calls $1, 4somniare raises to $2, Hero raises to $3, hansixxx calls $2, 4somniare raises to $4, Hero raises to $5, hansixxx calls $2, 4somniare raises to $6, Hero raises to $7, hansixxx calls $2, 4somniare raises to $8, Hero raises to $9, hansixxx raises to $35, 4somniare raises to $61, Hero raises to $100, hansixxx goes all-in $64, 4somniare goes all-in $104.52, Hero calls $4.52
Flop: 6 K K ($308.04, 3 players), 2 all-in

Turn: 6 ($308.04, 3), 2 all-in
River: 4 ($308.04, 3), 2 all-in

Final Pot: $308.04
hansixxx shows
8 10 8 7
4somniare shows two pair, Kings and Jacks
J 4 3 J
Hero shows
5 7 8 Q

4somniare wins $305.24 (net +$200.72)

hansixxx lost $99
Hero lost $104.52
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:35 PM   #307
happyfister
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

email sent to stars.
Everything which has evolved in this thread is sickening...

What I don't get and what a lot of people have already stated, random allegations without facts weaken this case
how can someone declare another player a 99,9% cheat without further explanation, i don't get it
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:42 PM   #308
freewilly12
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mig View Post
Freewilly12. I agree you should stop posting less than complete list of players, this just put more noise in this thread.

OP has posted damning evidence of these account not by cross referencing 3 stats but more like 10-15. The more stats are similar/equal the less likely this should be for non bot persons. 3 just isn't cutting it.
Like OP stated the ratio of Squeeze/3B being close to 1 is actually very rare among regs.

(It uses two stats.)

3 betting more on BB than SB is very rare also - basically the reason for their higher than normal agression factor on BB.

I also tested many legit regs and they didn't fit to these ranges.

I took the image off from imageshack so it shouldn't be showing anymore mods can remove those posts if they can.

Last edited by freewilly12; 06-08-2015 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:49 PM   #309
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Quote:
Originally Posted by JN8 View Post
i personally dont think F.edorZayse.v or S.amanta.81 are bots or cheaters of any kind (any more at least) although there are suspicious stuff lurking around them.
They played extremely alike stats a year+ ago, then they just stopped playing each other. this was a while after ive asked them in the chat if they knew each other without any answer (if i remember correctly)
nowadays samanta plays a completely different kind of game from what ive seen. (shuller_alt said earlier in this thread for those who missed that samanta has a frequently updated blog)
fedor is weird by only playing reg 6-max tables between the stakes 200-1k for a long time, no deep or zoom until recently when i saw in the lobby (i dont watch this pool more than once every two weeks probably) that he 2-tabled 200 zoom.
I emailed Stars myself about Fedor and Samanta along with a couple of other regs in late October and within the week Samanta stopped playing non zoom tables and changed his preflop stats drastically. I can only assume Stars froze their accounts while investigating or otherwise tipped them off.
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:52 PM   #310
freewilly12
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

Sorry to bombonca and purple for posting that screenshot
Hope you are allright.

I acted too hasty.

Also my apologies to Oink and Mig.

Oink can you pm me the key stat so I could run a better query - not going to post the results ITT.
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Old 06-08-2015, 04:52 PM   #311
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Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

I have seen TotalSuccess (one of the banned PLO100 accounts/bots) do that min bet thing as well. It was one of the things we posted in our original post in SSPLO BBV thread.

Basically Totalsucces minbets/minraises 100% at one table while playing normal at 2-3 other tables I was with him at. He did it for about 20-30 minutes.

Looked an awful lot like a bug in a bot program. In my 4 years of PLo I have never seen any reg do a thing like that. But aparently 4Somniare has had the same bug

Hands where TotalSuccess minbets/minraises 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oink View Post
@ MFN

BTW. here are some hands from the weird session where one of the guys minbet/minraised 100%. I think you can spot who it is

    Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 5 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #35676401

    BTN: $100 (100 bb)
    SB: $2,580.04 (2,580 bb)
    Hero (BB): $100 (100 bb)
    MP: $100 (100 bb)
    CO: $527.36 (527.4 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with A 7 A 8
    MP folds, CO raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero raises to $6.50, CO raises to $11, Hero raises to $33.50, CO raises to $56, Hero raises to $100 and is all-in, CO calls $44

    Flop: ($200.50) 6 J 7 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
    Turn: ($200.50) T (2 players, 1 is all-in)
    River: ($200.50) Q (2 players, 1 is all-in)

    Spoiler:



    Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
      Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #35676411

      CO: $100 (100 bb)
      BTN: $2,303.22 (2,303.2 bb)
      Hero (SB): $100 (100 bb)
      BB: $100 (100 bb)
      MP: $515.64 (515.6 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 5 3 K 9
      MP raises to $2, CO folds, BTN raises to $5, 2 folds, MP raises to $8, BTN calls $3

      Flop: ($17.50) A 7 Q (2 players)
      MP bets $1, BTN raises to $2, MP raises to $3, BTN calls $1

      Turn: ($23.50) 6 (2 players)
      MP bets $1, BTN raises to $25.44, MP raises to $49.88, BTN raises to $160, MP raises to $270.12, BTN calls $110.12

      River: ($563.74) Q (2 players)
      MP bets $1, BTN calls $1

      Spoiler:



      Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
        Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
        Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #35676421

        SB: $119.74 (119.7 bb)
        BB: $100 (100 bb)
        UTG: $2,279.52 (2,279.5 bb)
        Hero (MP): $100 (100 bb)
        CO: $120 (120 bb)
        BTN: $100 (100 bb)

        Preflop: Hero is MP with 8 9 5 Q
        UTG raises to $3.50, 2 folds, BTN raises to $6, SB calls $5.50, BB folds, UTG raises to $25, BTN raises to $44, SB folds, UTG raises to $139, BTN calls $56 and is all-in

        Flop: ($207) 6 3 7 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
        Turn: ($207) K (2 players, 1 is all-in)
        River: ($207) 7 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

        Spoiler:



        Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
          Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
          Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #35676431

          CO: $113.74 (113.7 bb)
          BTN: $100 (100 bb)
          SB: $2,303.72 (2,303.7 bb)
          Hero (BB): $100 (100 bb)
          UTG: $100 (100 bb)
          MP: $303.20 (303.2 bb)

          Preflop: Hero is BB with 6 T T Q
          UTG raises to $3.50, MP raises to $6, CO calls $6, 3 folds, UTG raises to $25.50, MP raises to $45, CO calls $39, UTG raises to $100 and is all-in, MP raises to $155, CO calls $68.74 and is all-in

          Flop: ($328.98) 5 Q J (3 players, 2 are all-in)
          Turn: ($328.98) 8 (3 players, 2 are all-in)
          River: ($328.98) 7 (3 players, 2 are all-in)

          Spoiler:



          Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
            Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 6 Players
            Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #35676441

            UTG: $40 (40 bb)
            MP: $100 (100 bb)
            CO: $1,330.82 (1,330.8 bb)
            Hero (BTN): $100 (100 bb)
            SB: $100 (100 bb)
            BB: $709.50 (709.5 bb)

            Preflop: Hero is BTN with K 4 A 5
            UTG posts BB OOP, UTG raises to $2, MP calls $2, CO calls $2, Hero raises to $12, SB calls $11.50, BB raises to $22, UTG raises to $39.50 and is all-in, MP folds, CO calls $37.50, Hero raises to $100 and is all-in, SB calls $88 and is all-in, BB raises to $160.50, CO calls $121

            Flop: ($563) 4 6 3 (5 players, 3 are all-in)
            BB bets $1, CO raises to $181, BB raises to $361, CO raises to $1,170.32, BB calls $188 and is all-in

            Turn: ($1,661) Q (5 players, 4 are all-in)
            River: ($1,661) 6 (5 players, 4 are all-in)

            Spoiler:



            Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
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            Old 06-08-2015, 04:59 PM   #312
            bombonca
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by freewilly12 View Post
            Like OP stated thhe ratio of Squeeze/3B being close to 1 is actually very rare among regs.

            (It uses two stats.)

            3 betting more on BB than SB is very rare also - basically the reason for their higher than normal agression factor on BB.

            I also tested many legit regs and they didn't fit to these ranges.

            I took the image off from imageshack so it shouldn't be showing anymore mods can remove those posts if they can.

            lol, man there is plenty of regs on your list and someone like Purple who everyone knows older then 10yo from his tourney days, also tons of ligit regs (?) like pauluss, leobog, redhorse and others i cant remember now.

            What we need is stars full investigation that will hopefully show undisputed consistency in playing style that only bot can do and/or collusion with other players/bots in 3bet/squeeze situations on regular basis. That could be a good start.

            Its only time when stars rep shows up , we should give them more of what they need to be looking at in their investigation.

            Last edited by bombonca; 06-08-2015 at 05:05 PM. Reason: and i am not mad at you
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            Old 06-08-2015, 05:05 PM   #313
            freewilly12
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by bombonca View Post
            lol, man there is plenty of regs on your list and someone like Purple who everyone knows older then 10yo from his tourney days, also tons of ligit regs like pauluss, leobog, redhorse and others i cant remember now.

            What we need is stars full investigation that will hopefully show undisputed consistency in playing style that only bot can do and/or collusion with other players/bots in 3bet/squeeze situations on regular basis. That could be a good start.

            Its only time when stars rep shows up , we should give them more of what they need to be looking at in their investigation.
            I think undisputed consistency is very tough cookie still. And there is very little evidence of collusion but it seems to be on everybodys mouth.

            But anyway..you accept my apology?
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            Old 06-08-2015, 05:07 PM   #314
            PURPLEPILS99
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            Accepted, you were just trying to help i know its ok.
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            Old 06-08-2015, 05:15 PM   #315
            Andreev11
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            Hi
            Dentist1 here.
            Im in Russian poker community at least 8 years (offline and online) and know many players, but dont know any from this post. its very strange.
            just Samanta81 - real player (name ilya, i meet with him 2 month ago)
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            Old 06-08-2015, 05:16 PM   #316
            apo5tol
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by freewilly12 View Post

            3 betting more on BB than SB is very rare also
            I will reiterate: No, it is NOT "very rare" or in fact rare at all.
            From ~30 students I've coached in the last couple of months more than half had 3bet higher on BB than SB.

            This stat might be worth looking at in conjunction with some other stats, but in of itself it doesnt show absolutely anything.
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            Old 06-08-2015, 05:26 PM   #317
            freewilly12
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by apo5tol View Post
            I will reiterate: No, it is NOT "very rare" or in fact rare at all.
            From ~30 students I've coached in the last couple of months more than half had 3bet higher on BB than SB.

            This stat might be worth looking at in conjunction with some other stats, but in of itself it doesnt show absolutely anything.
            Yes I didn't use it solo. Did those students also have same AgF on BB compared to their total agression?

            Squeeze/3B ratio and high BB agression were two key stats on OP post.

            I am asking this because it is a bit more complicated to do agression defs on notecaddy.
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            Old 06-08-2015, 05:29 PM   #318
            jas
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            Pokerstars software has a security feature which prevents users who are logged-in from the same location or household from playing together at the same games.

            Because the evidence is so strong, can pokerstars prevent the ip addresses of the accounts in question from playing at the same tables
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            Old 06-08-2015, 05:55 PM   #319
            madsamot
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Oink View Post
            I have seen TotalSuccess (one of the banned PLO100 accounts/bots) do that min bet thing as well. It was one of the things we posted in our original post in SSPLO BBV thread.

            Basically Totalsucces minbets/minraises 100% at one table while playing normal at 2-3 other tables I was with him at. He did it for about 20-30 minutes.

            Looked an awful lot like a bug in a bot program. In my 4 years of PLo I have never seen any reg do a thing like that. But aparently 4Somniare has had the same bug
            In 2010/2011 I was in a group of players from 2+2, who tried to get rid of the NL bots on the ongame network. One of the huge tells on them where that those bots never 5bet all in pre, always made a min 5bet preflop. Just felt like telling that, probably not a huge deal or anything in this case.
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            Old 06-08-2015, 06:03 PM   #320
            Dandan160808
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            I noticed two Estonians doing this 2 or 3 years ago and pokerstars agreed it was the same location but because they rarely sat at the same table it was ok? Now both players disconnected at the same time and sat out at the same time. I thought ok they will get banned but nothing happened as it looked like they were attempting for the first time to both sit in and hussle the other 4 of us.

            Ok another player comes to mind from Russia who must have seat scripting software or some kind of bot issue as he acts in the same way as all the other suspects accounts and the username is YOO4 and at first glance the avatar looks Chinese but county of origin is Russia and again he plays in a strange way and is playing now with a healthy stack everytime I observe him. He may be very good for all I know but he pops up with the others mentioned putting in a lot of hours and the OP could check him out for stats etc. there is one more and I'll just go get the spelling correct.
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            Old 06-08-2015, 06:11 PM   #321
            Dandan160808
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            Ok fedor is on now and all in again with two low pairs and a flush on the river to take a $400 pot. He had **** but made two small pairs and a queen flush on the second run. So he's back crushing with crap hands.

            The other guy who has just disappeared has an avatar of a face mask called something like Renaniunes?

            This guy at the same stakes crushing for over a year needs checking out.
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            Old 06-08-2015, 06:14 PM   #322
            Grethe
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them



            This is so clear to any non-believers.. The first 4 guys plays with less difference that the already busted bots did. Seregaxx, Fedor and SuSaain are a bit different in some areas.

            I've selected 10 winning midstakes-ish players to compare with. Nick/sample/winrate is hidden not to out anyone.
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            Old 06-08-2015, 06:15 PM   #323
            Scar18
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Dandan160808 View Post
            Ok fedor is on now and all in again with two low pairs and a flush on the river to take a $400 pot. He had **** but made two small pairs and a queen flush on the second run. So he's back crushing with crap hands.

            The other guy who has just disappeared has an avatar of a face mask called something like Renaniunes?

            This guy at the same stakes crushing for over a year needs checking out.
            renan def not a bot. chats/tilts/spews like crazy, also not good. dont have russian ptr but would be very surprised if he was doing much more than breaking even (though to be fair i would have thought that about most of the suspected accounts)
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            Old 06-08-2015, 06:20 PM   #324
            ChicagoJoey
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            haha Dandan, you might need to take a step back from the thread for a bit papi

            You already mentioned your "wife" account and your anon account ITT


            Renan def not crushing
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            Old 06-08-2015, 06:21 PM   #325
            yoyoplo
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            Re: Massive bot ring on PokerStars and how to spot them

            ^si
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