I can best describe you as dense.

I laughed my as off when you posted heads up Omaha simulations in the thread and called them worst case scenarios. No one in this thread besides you thinks this hand is going heads up. You embarrassed the hell out of yourself posting heads up Omaha sims in this thread. Also no one in this thread thinks the ranges you listed as worst case scenarios are the worst case scenarios, instead most in here think those scenarios are the most likely type of scenarios.

Redo your work homeslice and post those Omaha simulations 3 handed, with realistic ranges, I dare ya. I bet this dare gets a cricket response from you. Come on bro, you lit this thread up with simulation, give us more. BUT show us realistic 3 handed sims.

And also in the too dense category is you not understanding that a 10 year old book settled gap deficiencies a long time ago. Now many just mention that, "OP's hand is in trouble against better wraps and rundowns." Two people in this thread has stated in as gaps and at least 2 others have stated it as wraps/rundown. But somehow OP still thinks his hand is prettier than it actually is.

Good to know poker will stay soft and people will rationalise nittiness and scared money until the end of the world.

Homeslice, I am still waiting on those those 3 hand Omaha simulations with realistic ranges. Where I come from you are all hat and no cattle.

The days of oversimplified strategy is gone.

The trend is towards squeezing every drop of ev out of the game. Those 1%-2% points are large over the course of a career at high stakes. This hand was played with over $10,000 stacks.

The [AT][Q8] still makes two straight flushes. And your comment about [AQ][T8] makes a straight flush with single gap is an extremely minor point. Of a bigger point is my brother can beat up your brother. [AT][Q8] versus [AQ][T8].

And your comment about how in certain situations the T8 is easier to play could easily be off set by me mentioning how easier it is to play a 2nd/3rd high flush or 2nd/3rd high flush draw in certain scenarios. Over the course of a career which is a huge driving force to your win rate, yours or mine? Your comment was in a vacuum.

Like I said, the days of oversimplified strategy is gone. Anyone calling all three versions of a double suited hand the same is missing out on ev and playing certain hands in certain situations wrong. Pick a side going forward boys and girls. I'm on the squeeze my lemons (for all their ev) and let the juice run down my legs train.

Not picking a fight with you ladybruin, i respect your posting.

Let's please keep it civil everyone. Inky i know you have high-stakes experience, and weak ranges from some of the players guarantees that 4! is always an attractive option.

But its still interesting to decide how to approach this hand when we consider that sb, bb and utg are essentially uncapped.

Both hu and mw sims can also be fairly complex, especially if we want to try making adjustments for dead high cards based on action so far.

I think we generally worry less about uncapped range when a pot is boosted by extremely loose range and spr is extremely low.

For the purpose of explaining to others: the point missed with simply simming against “reasonable” ranges 3, 4 way or whatever where we have slightly less than neutral EV (but due to any dead money or FE still fine) is that the ranges they began with is supposedly so loose that you can’t argue they’d always call and go multi-way, but also say they’re not extremely weak. They are contradictory; pick one.

When SPR is so low, the suit configuration between Q and T high is very low. If you have a hand like AK67ds then of course it matters, but here? Not as much. Of course it matters, but not when it’s as slam dunk as this situation.

WRONG


The nature of Mississippi straddling incentives the blinds to fold more often since they have to act first preflop instead of last. The SB open raising means that range deserves respect. V1 3-betting a Mississippi SB open raiser also means that range deserves respect. It is highly doubtful this hand is going heads up to flop given that in front of Hero all 5 players have voluntarily entered the pot. And some of those ranges were strong to start off with.

The gaps between nut flush....2nd/3rd flush....4th/lower flush are huge. Preflop, postflop or dream casting don't mean crap to math. But it is cute to see the attempt to backtrack now after essentially posting ridiculousness earlier.

geez all I hear is crickets on my dare about 3 way simulations.

I am going by OP’s description of looseness, which isn’t precisely quantified, but based on my experience in similar games, I don’t think players like that care too much about how tight you’re supposed to play in that situation.

In a more normal lineup, yes, it should be extremely tight, but then, this hand wouldn’t happen.

WRONG AGAIN

#1 OP's description doesn't say anything about the SB, therefore the SB in a Mississippi straddling hand is going to be a strong range.

#2 OP's description of V1 is "old legend." The loose part is for a vip 60% playing range meaning the "old legend" knows what the hell he is doing and can get in there often. That description wasn't of the "old legend's" 3-betting range. The description of the "old legend's" 3 betting range was "lots of 3 bets." I bet the "old legend" knows what to 3 bet against a Mississippi SB open raise.


You wanna try again. And damn still all I hear is crickets on my 3 way Omaha simulation dare.

.

I'm not gonna give you a third WRONG, that would be 3 strikes and out for you. But your last post was you just continuing to dig a hole instead of stopping. So sad.


OP took the time to describe 3 players in detail.

SB was not given a description and therefore has to be given credit for having a brain. In a Mississippi straddling game where SB has to act first preflop, without specifics saying otherwise, you have to give the SB a strong range.

And what was that description of V1? Oh yeah he was called an "old legend." Most persons on this forum are not surprised to see an "old legend" willing to high vip and cbet. But that "old legend" also has to be given credit for having a brain and knowing to use a strong 3-betting range against a Mississippi SB open raise range.

You created a new account on 2+2, no one thinks this is your first account, and you came out swinging like a cocky know it all. You embarrassed yourself putting heads up Omaha simulations in this thread. And you have spent the whole night being wrong on several points and backtracking. I hope you learned something about humility if not poker.

<cricket cricket>

Wait are you giving me strikes? What are you, the teacher? The judge?

Yeah, you or anyone who thinks I'm the one who is the cocky know it all, be my guest. My time is not free; I only give it when I wanna. I usually give it quite freely, but I'm bored with you and cbf to explain sht. You wanna pretend you've won some holy internet argument, again, be my guest lol.

PS: I'm not sure why you bring up the no one thinks this is my first account thing. I literally say in my first post that I used to post, and then linked my threads. I'm very ??? about your random insults that has nothing to do with the discussion in question.

Homeslice, the cocky insulting nature came from you on day one of posting in a dozen different threads. If you had spent less time mass posting cocky condescending crap that first day, then maybe you would known more about the threads you posted in. And the readers of this thread wouldn't have had to see a ridiculous heads up simulation by you.

Speaking of which, I'm still waiting on a 3 way simulation from you with realistic ranges.

[QUOTE=ladybruin;56744292]WRONG


The nature of Mississippi straddling incentives the blinds to fold more often since they have to act first preflop instead of last. The SB open raising means that range deserves respect. V1 3-betting a Mississippi SB open raiser also means that range deserves respect. It is highly doubtful this hand is going heads up to flop given that in front of Hero all 5 players have voluntarily entered the pot. And some of those ranges were strong to start off with.



In the short time that the game had been running, the 3B% was probably 100%.

I agree, you have to respect the SB, he knows it is likely going to be 3B at min.

Any player opening SB should have T10%

The old legend was on his 2nd 10k bullet at the time.

He was stacked earlier in the game when he closed the action by calling 20% of his stack 4 way with:

Q ❤️ 8 ♠️ 7 ♠️ 6 ♦️

He called off ~8k more on a

Q ♠️ 2 ❤️ 9 ♠️


Only relevant reads on him in this session^

CharlesRS, can you restate what was your desired/expected flop situation? You said in game you leaned to 4B! Were you hoping to get it heads up? Were you hoping to get it 3 way? And against which player/s?

You called V1 an "old legend" if you had to give him a 3 betting range after a Mississippi SB open raise what would it be?

If you have the time and inclination do every player, and include whether you think they call raises for example,

SB 10% or whatever you think it is

BB 5%-20% meaning since he didn't 3 bet he doesn't have the best hands, this was just an example, you put in your range, also note whether you think he calls the V1 3 bet or a potential trial 4 bet from you or SB

V1 ? This is the "old legend" that 3 bet

V2 ?

V3 ?

Without trying to influence your take, my take is that SB and V1 "old legend" go to the flop no matter whether this hand is play for a 3 bet or 4 bet. Surprisingly, I don't think anyone has mentioned position. I think your only saving grace on the flop is having position in a 3 bet pot.

I think SB could be opening 6789DS / 89TJ DS , along w aces bad aces, and stacking off w both 30% of the time.

CharlesRS, can you restate what was your desired/expected flop situation? You said in game you leaned to 4B! Were you hoping to get it heads up? Were you hoping to get it 3 way? And against which player/s?

Best case scenario: Get HU vs V2 (4k) (~3000$ Dead money)

(Risk 4k to win 11)

2nd best: Get 3 way vs V1 and V2 (~1800$ dm)

(Risk 13k to win 32k 3 way) (18k side pot)

3rd best: Get repotted by SB and go HU (~4000$ dm)

(Risk 13k to win 20k)

You called V1 an "old legend" if you had to give him a 3 betting range after a Mississippi SB open raise what would it be?

Random 50%+ hands

If you have the time and inclination do every player, and include whether you think they call raises for example,

SB 10% or whatever you think it is

BB 5%-20% meaning since he didn't 3 bet he doesn't have the best hands, this was just an example, you put in your range, also note whether you think he calls the V1 3 bet or a potential trial 4 bet from you or SB

V1 ? This is the "old legend" that 3 bet

V2 ?

V3 ?


SB: 30%
BB: 10% (big craps player)
V1: 50% (if sb calls) 80% (if sb folds)
V2: 95% (short)
V3: 5%

Here is my take and it kinda lines up with a non-Mississippi straddle and pretending that your SB opening first is a traditional game EP opening first. If anyone thinks I flubbed it, then post your range ideas for every player.

SB 18% like a EP opening range
BB 5%-25% didn't raise
V1 5% skilled bettor? "old legend"
V2 2%-25% removed AAxx
V3 2%-25% removed AAxx

The equity flows to the best ranges, but sometimes it might just mostly flow to a single player. I would say you and the SB are going to end up with about the same equity if he is at 18% opening. If SB opens tighter, then you get screwed and end up in third place equity wise instead of tied for second. Dead money might flow to SB and V1 way more than you in a 3 way pot. You have a domination problem too, that can end up screwing you from picking up additional equity.

Also, there has to be some upper level on the hands people are willing to play for raises. I put it ar the top 25% of hands. If anyone wants to edit those upwards, how the heck high are you going 33% of all hands? 50% of all hands?

You labeled V1 as "old legend." I'm confused as to it's meaning. If he is an old legend because the money seem to flow his way month after month. You may not be understanding how he knows how to change gears between loose aggressive and tight aggressive. If he is skilled, then he is 3betting 5% into a Mississippi SB open raise (plus or minus whatever he decides to do since it was also a squeeze).

The critical part of my thesis is someone raised and someone 3bet. I'm saying the raiser and the 3 bettor weren't morons.

I need more time to think about your dead money scenarios. Plus I'm playing poker right now.

SB 18%
BB 5%-25%
V1 5%
V2 2%-25%
V3 2%-25%
HERO AhQhTs8s



I let my post sit there for awhile to see if anyone didn't like my ranges. And if anyone doesn't like them, then say so. But an interesting thing about these ranges is that because of domination, you have the worst equity. Yup, yup. The 3-bettor "old legend" is soaking up everyone's lost equity. The assumptions I am making is that it goes 6 way to the flop in a 3 bet pot. Also I am using the assumptions that even though the action comes back to SB and BB they just call with all of their hands even AAxx instead of 4 betting into a family pot.

Don't beat me up about the above assumptions. It is just the starting point. And like I said you have the worst equity. I posted earlier your hand isn't as pretty as it looks. So with regards to dead money, lose one player and figure things out. Lose two players and figure things out. But since you are at the bottom of the totem pole, you get the least amount of dead money.

In my opinion, your best bet is to call the $1,200 3-bet. And be in absolute position without the initiative. "In position without the initiative" is another topic not talked about much on this forum.

If you decide to preflop 4 bet, then God bless. My great grandmother (whom I knew) had one of her grand mother's be a full blooded Cherokee. Right from that area and also down near Ashville. Either I just make the cutoff or am one generation off to get a guaranteed job at that casino/tribal reservation. But if you 4 bet this hand I might have to head over there, stay with Kin and play your game.

I would of course buy you a beer and talk strat with you the weekend I was there.

Ladybruin using Vision there are big differences with this hand in multi way squeeze spots. When closing the action it is called half of the time and folded half of the time. When not closing the action it is always 4b. This is tempered depending on spot with how often the player left to act has AA. This hand is obviously on the cusp and the solver moves the hands that are on the cusp that have the right properties into the bluffing range. When 4 betting the bluffs start needing to have an A and this hand fits the bill.

The old legend = 80yo lifelong bookmaker from the south, a guy that could have 10/20k basebet on a craps roll. Ive played with him 3x, each time he bought in with 5k and got all in before the button got to him. His range is double suited rds/ broadway hands/ decent qq / bad kk.

You have the wrong impression of V1 and V2.

V1 has 40% of hands and V2 has 50% (he played every hand for the hr this game had been going)

None of these are regulars, they were just here for the series.

GreatBigRedOne, in some stuff I looked at I saw the calling and folding. And in some other stuff I looked at I saw how often the SB had AA made a big difference depending on whether it was closer to 1/6 or 1/4. I'm taking that as some of the cusp you describe. I Cringe a little bit when talking about the bluffing range in threads. I'm not talking about swinging the pendulum so far as to never talk about bluffs and be insanely unbalanced. But I still remember back in the days of the dinosaurs when Holdem threads were full of people asking how many suited Ace + wheel cards bluffs should they use to balance out their value range when they didn't even 7nderstand their value range.

CharlesRS, be careful using "old legend" as a description. People beat poker, but don't beat house games like craps. Since we are talking about a poker hand, I'm guessing I'm not the only one that took "old legend" as a poker legend Doyle Brunson, Chip Reese type meaning. That is why I gave V1 a correct 5% 3 betting range.