25/50/100 button at Harrahs Cherokee during the series

Lot of gambling going on, the table just opened and we have been playing for less than an hr.

Villian 1 ($12k)

Old legend, vip 60%+ lots of 3 bets, lots of C bets.

Villian 2 (20k)

30 y/o gambler playing every hand since the game started

Villian 3 (15k)

Tighter passive mid 50s guy, no reads, under 20% vpip 20 hands in

Vil


Hero (13k) button straddle (100$)

A ❤️ Q ❤️ T ♠️ 8 ♠️



SB: $300
BB: Call $300
Villian 1: makes it $1200
Guy playing every hand (4k) calls $1200
Villian 2: calls 1200$
Hero (13k): ?

Call for me. If it was a single-gap hand instead of double-gap i lean towards 3!

I cant follow the action here. Villains 2 and 3 are in the blinds and it is your turn to act before they respond to villain 1's 3 bet (villain 1 would be in some sort of early or middle position)?

Mississippi Straddle - he's $100 on the button, so first to act is SB that has to call $75 first, then BB would need to call $50, then UTG $100, etc.

In this case:

SB opens to $300
BB calls the $300
UTG villain #1 raises to $1200
UTG+1 guy playing every hand calls the $1200
CO villain #2 calls the $1200

So HERO is on the button needing to call $1100; since BB flatted the open the only concern is SB re-potting to like $6000+ if he was opening with AAxx or a DS Broadway Wrap.

Correct^

I feel like it is at the bottom of the 4B range.

Flatting is ok, but i think we are well ahead of the legends 3B range, as well as the two cold callers.

BB and SB could have us crushed, but unsure if they would even put it in with hands that dominate ours. (Bad AA/pure broadway rundowns)

I would fold since it is two bets cold to me. I'd play something like AKJT ds. I can see the appeal of calling but I'm really reluctant to enter any pot when it's been raised and reraised in front of me. Too much risk for too little reward.

I dont have the answer but the closest I could model on Vision is BTN vrs Squeeze SB and CO (CO opens, hero flats BTN, SB 3 bet, CO calls 3 bet).

In this case AQT8 single suited (vision doesn't have the double suited version for this spot because it would have 3 bet the CO open) and always calls.

I think that some of you guys are relying too heavily on solvers and not really thinking about the situation. I know that is where poker is heading but I would challenge Vision, MonkerSolver, PIO, and Mastermind to range my opponents correctly in live 5/5 PLO games. It will never happen.
Let's look at the options..

1. Call. Make the nuts and we win. Yeah..
2. Raise to $6600 (I think my math is close). We likely get 2 callers at least. A jam over the top is unlikely but if we see it, having an A in our hand really crushes our equity. If we get the callers as expected, we are back to making the nuts and winning strat.
3. Raise to $2100. Open the betting back up and hope to GII preflop HU or 3 ways vs very wide ranges with a ton of dead money.

I think that option number 3 is what I would go for here...... Thoughts?

What?

Realistically, hero is almost never folding after calling 1.2k - the most likely scenario where hero will fold is if sb or bb jams, everyone else folds and we decide to fold because our hand does not have enough equity to get it in against aaxx.

Min-raise does not seem like a great option despite 4k shortstack who can re-open the action. In practice hero will get very little credit for ever min-raising with aaxx because shoving and getting in more than half his stack with pre-flop with aa is a home run, and min-raise sets up some super awkward postflop spots. Also note that after min-raise hero is even more pot-commited preflop, and reduces his positional advantage by bloating the pot.

Calculating the ev of 4! Pot is kind of tricky, i suspect it is mildly +ev to neutral. While 4! Vs wide 3bettor is profitable, it also helps the blinds play perfectly, while losing the max against hands that dominate us. Meanwhile, when hero calls our hand has good implied odds and playability in multi-way pots. Even if we face a 4! From blinds after flatting our hand has decent multi-way equity with 3+ players, so it will be hard for hero to make a big mistake pre-flop vs a 4!. We may even get to choose between flatting with less than 35% of our stack behind or rejam to push our equity multiway, which is also a good situation.

So for me the primary question in deciding to call vs. Large 4! Is which is more profitable, as both should be winners. Note we can also opt for some smaller 4! Like 4k instead of 6k if we think it sets up a more advantageous situation for us postflop, since there will be textures we can get away from. But not min-raise that still is too small.

There is still a reasonable case for a tight fold here, but absent more info on the blinds the other options are more exciting.

But again, going back to your post you have not demonstrated that call is a bad option relative to raise. And i don't agree that calling means hero needs to make the nuts to win or make profitable decisions postflop.

In some other thread, I brought up a point about double suited hands that seems to be relevant here too. Not all double suited versions are equal.

[AT][Q8] best version suited to the two highest cards with a nut flush suit and a 3rd nut flush suit.

[A8][QT] second best version suited to the two highest cards with a nut flush suit and a 3rd nut flush suit.

[AQ][T8] worst version because the TEN high flush is only the fifth high nut flush.

You have the worst double suited version with a TEN high flush. You are going to get handed your ass in the long run with TEN high flushes in multiway, multiple bet pots.

The hierarchy (and the gaps between them isn't even close) of winning money with flushes is...

1. Nut flush
2. 2nd or 3rd nut flush
3. Every other flush

For me the the question is between folding or flatting. I can see 4 betting if the 3 bettor or others fold and you can pick up the dead money and gain equity with a hand that is doing ok anyway.

This scenario though, and the description of the game makes it seem likely that no one is folding anyway, so your not picking up dead money, and are just getting it in with a hand that dominates few hands while getting certain calls from better hands that will exist in this scenario quite often.

Regarding the solvers analysis of a spot vrs loose live games yes drastically changing the pre flop ranges would change the solver vrs solver output, and yes the ranges the solver solves against are much tighter, as well as not solving against nearly as much multi way action. Having said that, if you study what I call the baseline of solver vrs solver ranges, and take note of how the solver strategy changes in loose vrs tight situations, you can learn how to adjust in situations that should be tight but are not.

Probably breaking even in equity with some reverse implied odds. I fold here but I’m usually too tight in most spots

so can we get a flop up in this biatch or what

Pot. Not close at all. Jam as much money in as possible. Not remotely close.

No.

No.

The answer is PLO Matrix/Monker. Just simulate it by ignoring the cc of the 3b because all it is is extra dead money. Alternatively, EP open vs sb 3b and bb cc you have a relatively clear 4b. In some situations we can argue for a call, especially if deep or if huge fish are to act and we want a call, but as played we just want to jam the money in.

The situation is that they are even looser than GTO so you want to shovel the money in yeehaw.

In what world is that a bad thing with our hand?

No.

Absolutely not.

No. It actually doesn't matter here, your hand is too strong.

What, in a .4 SPR pot or whatever it will be?

If you all are this scared money, don't play PLO at these stakes.

About that unlikely worst case scenario:



Yeehaw.

Funny stuff posted today. If this were the gym, I would be asking, "do you even lift?"

🤝

I apologize for the bad description.
Below is correct.


Villian 1 ($12k)

Old legend, vip 60%+ lots of 3 bets, lots of C bets

Villian 2 (4k)

30 y/o gambler playing every hand since the game started

Villian 3 (15k)

Tighter passive mid 50s guy, no reads, under 20% vpip 20 hands in

Hero (13k) button straddle (100$)

A ❤️ Q ❤️ T ♠️ 8 ♠️



SB (12k): Raise $300

BB (35k): Call $300

V1 (12k): 3B $1200

V2 (4k): Call $1200

V3 (15k): Call $1200

Hero (13k): ?


I think V3s range is mostly DP/DS (kk-jj) type hands and premium kings that will fold pre to aggression.

SB has the most premium broadway rds and aces.

In game i leaned 4B.

I understand that my version of AQT8 double gets dominated by AA, but it crushes alot of V1/V2 range and i can possibly get folds from SB and V3.

Your hand is not as pretty as it looks. It has been over a decade since Jeff Hwang talked about the importance of the gaps in a PLO hand. Furthermore, ever program from Odd Oracle, PLO Vision, etc talks about the value of a flush grouped into categories like nut flush, 2nd/3rd flush and 4th/lower flush.

You are talking about cold 4 betting with a hand full of gaps and a ten high flush component.

Even if your hand ended up 3 way on the flop, at best I see you only retaining 33.33% equity. In most cases 3 way, I see you below 33.33% equity against AAxx, and/or against ranges below 10% and/or against pure rundowns like KQJT - JT98, especially when these hands dominate your ten high flush.

Have you ever looked at a preflop monker sim lol.

I don't think the 2nd flush draw being (t8) instead of (q8) has much of an impact on pre-flop decision.

You are welcome to post a pre-flop Monker 6 handed sim in this thread that goes $300, $300, $1200, $1200, $1200 and hero.


Welp in the second post of this thread you saw the impact of gaps in how you play a hand. Too bad you don't see the just as important importance of flush hierarchies.

To be honest, since the release of PLO Vision, anyone that questions the importance of suitedness in decision making surprises me. Even small tweaks in suitedness can make huge changes in how a hand is played preflop and postflop.

-------

A poker forum is essentially about 3 types of hands. #1 ridiculous stuff like should I fold AA. #2 someone making a huge mistake in one direction or another and not knowing it. #3 someone making a small mistake in one direction or another and not knowing it. This thread is #2 or #3, but some in here would debating as to whether it was #2 or #3.

Well to respond to your point about flushes more specifically - the difference in having the (q8) vs (t8) might be a difference of 1%-2% equity max, depending on whether the hand goes HU or multiway. Note: being able to make straight flushes with single gap or no gap is quite material.

Hu, the queen high vs ten high variation has at most about .5% more equity vs a top 10% range. Using odds oracle.

4-way some casual simulations show closer to 1%.

And in some ways the t8 flush draw will be easier to play, as some of our decisions to bluffcatch or gii with weaker combo draws will be easier.

Your point about flushes is still appreciated and more relevant if hero had worse position, and thus more reversed implied odds scenarios with weaker flush/flush draws.

I’m not suggesting I have this exact sim; that’s a straw argument, which everyone seems to love. My comment is AQT8ds being treated by monker as an extremely strong hand in various situations including mw and va aggressive action. It clearly is and would apply here if you have any skill in extrapolating monker results

All your comments about domination and non nuttedness are laughable when the spr is going to be like .2 or .4. in these situations what’s matters is equity and flop distribution which a hand like AQT8ds is an absolute monster in. This is one of the first extrapolations you learn using monker.

Also: quoting a 10 year old book to back up your point has the reverse effect of what you think it has.