Ladybruin it would be nice to have a strat page where actual useful concepts could be discussed now that Vison is out and we can quickly and easily examine some of these things. For example using Vision in the same spot I discovered (last week and maybe everyone else already knew this i dont know) that premium KK QQ will 4b when closing the action in a squeeze spot without the A, but will only ever flat when not closing the action without the A and 4b with.

I can make logic assumptions as to why I believe this to be the case such as Monker has a flat AA range in all positions and will always be shoving so when a second villian flats his AA is removed while the 3b still has non AA holding so the premium KK QQ are pushing more equity than when there is someone to act behind is my logic. Is it accurate? I do not know.

GreatBigRedOne, some of the plays I've seen from Monker and/or Vision, I call them "chain reactions." You've described some closing the actions ones I'm only also recently noticing. The days of oversimplified strategy is gone. Poker is far from dead for anyone willing to go down the rabbit and keep learning something new.

I often get get pushback on here if I say something like all three versions of a double suited hand aren't the same or always played the same. Or I say that being in position without the initiative is a option worth considering more often than mentioned around here (this is my way of addressing some of the flating you are talking about). I don't start many threads, but I hope CharlesRS and others keep on posting. You never know what interesting directions a thread might take.

Play PLO 200 bi bankroll deep or don’t and your answer is clear.

Sometimes players will both have your cards or AK and you lose some of your equity to low rundowns and paired hands.

Sometimes players make dumb folds of 20% of their stack after calling.

Until you are certain players aren’t flatting trash and likely have your cards + pair + AK then jam and reload all day

A good way of thinking about is is this, letÂ’s say you do jam and get 3 calls. How many BIs will be in the pot? Swinging around 10-11 bi in PLO is typical instead of 2-3 bi in holdem

Interesting^

If this was a normal game, its easily folded correctly.

In this spot, i think 4B usually goes 3 way with me dominating V1 and V2 and folding out alot of EQ and DM.

Obv if SB has prem AA, im 33/40% HU v him with 4k dm, which is fine.

So results?

I'm willing to wager my 2+2 "one time" ticket that the BB or V3 beat OP's ten high flush.

I flat the 1200, so does every other player that has VPIPed.

Pot ($7200)


Flop K ♠️ J ♠️ 7 ♥️

SB: check

BB: check

V1: Bet ($4,000)

V2: Fold

V3: All In ($13,800)

Hero: All In ($11,800)

V1: Fold


Pot: ($34,800)

Turn: Q ♦️

River: 7 ♦️

V3: Shows K ♦️ K ♥️ 9 ♦️ T ♣️

Lol, close

The $4k bet/fold is pretty epic.

GreatBigRedOne nailed it.

CharlesRS, yeah this one is going to sting and have you wondering if a preflop 4-bet bluff would have been successful in getting V3 to fold preflop. V3 had a single suited KK and side cards of T9 that connected with the KK, so it isn't a lock that he is folding. This game will drive you crazy with the "what could have been." As GreatBigRedOne stated, this hand is a bluff and he did a better job describing it than me. It is a bluff or probably can be called a semi-bluff, but that AQT8/ds damn sure ain't a value hand given the action. The flop ran pure, V3 was about a preflop 55% favorite against you, and even on what looks like a nice flop for you, V3 was about a 55% favorite on the flop .

Serious though, if everyone that VPIPed called preflop in a 3 bet pot, is preflop bluffing even a thing?

Interesting hand and fun table for sure, post more juicy hands.

that sucks man should have folded pre. also lol @ four bet bluffing vs a bunch of 70% VPIP whales. u kids and your solvers.

Its not a polarized pure bluff Gamble. Its mixing your lowest equity hands that do have enough equity to continue into what is a very narrow value range so that you do actually have some bluffs.

Yeah I call it preflop semi-bluffing.

The best preflop hold'em example would be preflop raising an suited A5. And then adding in more suited Ace + suited wheel cards until you have enough semi-bluffs in your range.

But like I said earlier post, I cringe even talking about omaha preflop semi-bluffing. Preflop semi-bluffing can quickly turn into a thread derail. However, the key point in this thread was several people thought [AQ][T8] was some awesome monster value hand and gave me grief for saying it wasnt.