But CO dident raise he limped and then we are obv raising

Correct CO didn't open raise, he open limped.

But since CO open-limping isn't a thing in 6 max, we are left using the type of information we do know about poker to make some reasonable assumptions of how we should play.

The interesting thing that we find is that KKJ7/ds is a strong hand used NOT as a 3-bet against a CO open raise, but as a cold call to strength our cold calling range. Therefore, KKJ7/ds is a great candidate to over-limp. And this stuff is cumulative, I also posted, in post #11 a YouTube video by Weisman talking about how someone open limping causes us to react with less raising.

I've just decided to call this sub-forum the "it depends" sub-forum. I can post the CO open raising versus a BU response range. I can post a YouTube video from an Up Swing Poker coach talking poker theory against open limps...

and players will still disagree.

The way I see it there is the default play and the deviations from the default play. I am in here giving advice on the default play.

And to be brutally honest, in post #11 the first 2 minutes of the Upswing Poker YouTube video by Weisman talking poker theory about responding to open limping is the /end of thread of this thread and Weisman's words aren't even talking about having another person behind since this thread had a rock acting last.

I'm probably in the minority but i bet smaller not larger in this spot with my range on the flop. The board favors you and when you hit his range has not great equity and worse playability against your value range. You have position and his options seem a lot worse/harder to play against a smaller sizing than a pot size one where he can gii or fold with pretty defined ranges. I bet this hand but honestly it might be a check tbh the more I think about it. If i bet and he has a simple gii/fold range I imagine this is the best hand I don't gii which kinda sucks to b/f

I don't have anything to add in terms of strategy, because these limits are WAY above my skill level but I wanted to say thank you to everyone who contributed to the post.

This was one of the best threads I've ever read here, in terms of value to me. The intense discussion and the detail was incredibly informative - especially the breakdown using the widget examples.

I don't know what I can say without getting involved in some stupid yelling match, but I want to point out that you don't need to protect an overlimp range if you just don't overlimp, and even if you did overlimp some hands, you can do it explo, and even if you want to balance it, you can still mix without limping behind KKJ7ds or whatever.

Another point for raising is that you attack the blinds and increase your equity realisation by making it less multiway. When you're calling a raise, the bb automatically has to fold a bunch, so even calling you won't go multiway as often, but if you limp behind, it will go multiway the majority of times, so your playability advantage can be leveraged less.

Finally... literally you push more equity vs a limp range than a raised range because raised ranges are stronger and limp raises are weaker. I mean, if your hand has a big advantage (both equity and playability/realizability), you want the pot to be bigger. It's really not rocket science. Small hand small pot, big hand big pot. 2021 now and it's still true, absolutely amazing.

ALSO, because of positions and SPR, defending against a reraise when it's a limp/3b is MUCH more profitable for you than if you 3b and get 4b by AA, so the disadvantage of reopening the raising also is much less. Comparing isolating with the act of 3betting is just an absolute joke and I would recommend not listening to anyone who would argue for it.

I'm not sure people are aware, but I have like 3 RIO and/or Upswing content creators appear on my study streams regularly. It seems really ridiculous that free upswing videos get presented as evidence of high level strategy but somehow I'm like the worst poker player ever who spouts nonsense even though I make study stream with some of those same people as guests and we talk strat together privately. All my graphs and results are out there, and I play up to 50/100 and I back up every thing I say with sims and specific reasoning, but that's not good enough, but a clip from a stream taken out of context, that's god's words I guess.

Imagine arguing that any upswing/rio coach would advocate for limping behind KKJ7ds lol. Absolute joke.

Actually funny thing is, due to rathole games and mtts, people have been running sims that allow options for limps, so it's not actually true that nobody knows how to respond to limp strategies. You don't need any sim to know you don't limp KKJ7ds though (unless icm).

This thread has gone down a long but good rabbit hole.

But if this was some other basic thread and people were talking about a hand that is likely to go multiway, then they would be saying, "play nutted hands."

CO open limping isn't a thing. Therefore using CO opening raising as a starting point of discussion. I don't see anyone saying that KKJ7/ds isn't correctly in the cold calling range. Well if you are going to move some hands from the BU cold calling range into the

BU isolation raise versus a CO open limp

Do it with nutted hands like
AKK4/single suited to ace (/sa)
AKK3/sa
AKK2/sa
AKTT/ds


Not KKJ7/ds

Funny thing is people are still in here trying to say they have re-created this exact hand. Well oops the last poster left off the rock straddle who acts after us preflop. Therefore their last paragraph is bunk. I'm doing just the opposite. I'm not trying to magically and correctly give CO a limping cash game limping range. Im talking about CO open raising and going from there.

There is a lot of funny crap in this thread and this forum is now the "it depends" thread.

And I'm laughing my ass off at the ones trying to call KKJ7/ds the greatest hand in the world. I already named several with a suited ace. You know an Ace, that kind of important card. And a damn sure better candidate to move from the BU cold calling versus a CO open raise to the BU isolation raising versus a CO open limp.

Overlimping is just terrible, lol.

Your analysis of the hand is enlightening.

It is challenge time.

I want a percentage answer from you and InkyPoker (and anyone else that want to give a guess) as to your BU isolation raise percentage versus a CO open limp.

Let's round to the nearest 5%. If the CO open limps are you on the BU isolation raising 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%, 35% or even higher? Tell us your number.

Everyone in here knows I'll gladly pull out the maths and magic widgets. But I'm tired of going first.

Let’s get ready to rumble!!!

Just saying, “good hand, therefore raise.” is bull crap. Poker isn’t played that way. Poker is played with ranges. And unlike some in this thread, I’ve provided structural context to the OP’s KKJ7/ds.

It is challenge time.

At the very least I want a percentage answer from InkyPoker and Matt111. But I hope many people join in. This has been a great thread. I’ll give my answer after a few others participate. But, I’m tired of going first.

Situation…

Cash game with rake (this had to be added because someone said something foolish about MTTs earlier). CO open limps 6 handed and you are on the BU and behind you are the SB, BB and the rock straddle. What is your BU isolation raising percentage?

I could have left it there, but I’ll supply some context with numbers rounded to the nearest percentage. The rake might skew the numbers I present below depending on where you play. I’ll list a player position and the next player to act for a normal game where no one open limped and there is no straddle.

18% EP open raises
05% MP 3-bets
08% MP cold calls

22% MP open raises
06% CO 3-bet
12% CO cold calls

30% CO open raises
08% BU 3-bets
18% BU cold calls

47% BU open raises

If we don't get a BU isolation percentage from InkyPoker and Matt111, then their silence speaks volumes.

But for fun, anyone and everyone (no about 350 isn't allowed), what is your BU isolation raise percentage versus a CO open limp for OP’s rock straddle game?

I like how you completely ignore the SPR facing a 4b aspect.

In fact this is immediately provable by using a 200bb sim. BTN vs CO you flat 95% btn vs co with KKJ7ds 100bbs, but at 200bbs it’s a 100% 3b.

It’s literally that simple. We push equity vs range by getting called, but give AA too easy a chance to have a low spr by 4betting, so we’re less keen to 3b, but once we’re deeper and OOP don’t have a magically easy spot to 4b all aces, we immediately always 3b.

This applies even more vs a limp as spr is even higher, not to mention generally weaker range than an rfi.

Even if we’re assuming they’re limping a co rfi range, which is a joke; even if their limp frequency is not that much off, the composition would usually not include the top part of their range, but whatever. Even if I somehow play your game and use your assumptions, and they ARE limping an rfi range, we’d still 3b/raise.

And this is not including the part about forcing bb to vpip to see flop and not have a free check.

That said you constantly make yourself so easy to dunk on but when presented absolute evidence you’re wrong you just pretend it didn’t happen, so I don’t see why it would be different this time.

My last paragraph from post #3 in this thread.

I mentioned SPR (postflop) in the first post I made in this thread. But nice try at deflecting. I figured you wouldn't come in here and put a percentage number to your "nice hand, therefore raise" joke of a method of describing OP's situation. And your deflecting includes not talking about which specifics hands should make up your range. I tossed you a softball and only asked for the percentage. The maths must be failing you. Or you are pretending you weren't asked a specific question. I got no answer, digits we want digits...

unless I missed where you gave the readers of this thread the BU's isolation raise percentage.

You're not paying me for coaching, I don't have to answer your questions. If you want, you can find my details on my page.

Why do I need to give you an iso%? I literally showed you that even if we iso a 3b range, which is what you were advocating, it would still be an iso with this hand, especially given SPR.

I think it's pretty obvious that if a hand is a 100% 3b, then you're very likely isolate against a limp as well, and I'm not going to play your games... or are you arguing against that also? Are you going to argue that isolating vs an rfi lets you get headsup, but isolating against a limp you're more likely to go multiway so even though this is an iso 3b, you're not going to iso against a limp? Are you gonna argue that the rock will magically turn a hand that's a 100% 3b even BTN vs MP into a limp behind?

"You can't prove it there are no sims" yeah good job, neither do you. There are almost never exact sims for exact situations, that's what good players do, draw the most useful extrapolations possible, and yours, using a 3b frequency to define your iso frequency, are clearly... interesting.

You want to argue against every strong player advocating a slightly tightened RFI range (1 position off approx and slight calibration in hand type) when facing limps, and then say that "nya nya you have no exact sims to prove this, therefore you are FoS when you say you know" even though you don't either and draw even more wild extrapolations, be my guest. I'm not here trying to convince you, I just don't want anyone else reading this to think you know what you're talking about based on how confident you sound, or nobody being bothered to even respond to you because you double post and write huge meandering paragraphs and then make personal attacks on whomever disagrees with you.

Anyway, I've presented an opposing position, if whomever reading can't tell for themselves who is full of it and who knows what they are talking about, god save them. Bye.

TLDR, but I would have read had it included a BU isolation raise percentage.

Bet flop for a medium-large size. Hand is plenty strong enough to bet/call, we generate some immediate folds from some of his AA with minimal board interaction, and overall this is a very strong flop for our range. Would be checking some of our more marginal top pairs / KK with gutter etc, bet hands like this, strong 2 pair, wraps, and then my flop bluffs would be some hands with good blockers to his continues that don't realize super well in the check line, like JJT8

This flop should favor our range over villains. He's going to have a hard time continuing with AA if his side cards aren't very good for the board.

And since we have a lot of the side cards that are good for the board, it stands to reason we should be betting here, and I lean towards betting full pot.

We have a lot more of the wraps, two pair or set combos on this board than he does.