Game is 5/10/25 (rock) - for anyone who hasn't played with a rock before, the winner of prior hand, starts the next hand with a $25 straddle, regardless of position. And they are last to act pre. I haven't played with any of these guys before, and most of them know each other.


~$4k effective. I am on button, rock is MP. We are playing 6 handed. Villain in the hand is the best pro at the table. Villain First to act in CO, limps. I raise BTN to $100 with KKJ7 . Folds back to V who LRR me full pot $375. I call.

Flop ($825) - QT7 . Villain checks. He should have an AA heavy range but definitely not always AA. Is my hand strong enough to bet or should I take a free card?

I'm 45% against all AA. I'm about 35% against all AA with a gutshot to broadway, but I have no idea how he would handled those hands on this flop.

Bet flop large. Villain may have less aaxx than you think, if he is a pro. And even if he does have aaxx this is a scary texture. That is why we want to apply pressure on the flop, and we can think about checking back some turns if called.

It is nice to see another hand up for discussion.

Let’s start the checkup with your preflop actions.

You didn’t preflop raise to pot? I don’t know how the $5 and $10 blinds are treated at your particular poker room, but a max preflop pot sized raise from you would have been to either $115 or $150. If a pot sized bet here is $115 and no one else is really playing with the $5 chips and everyone is making it just $100 here, then okay. But, if the other players are raising full pot, then you have to raise full pot here to $115 or $150, whatever the max is or you risk players not respecting your raises. Your non-max preflop raise might have factored into Villain re-raising you. Obviously, if Villain had AAxx, then he is re-raising you regardless. My main point here is that if the blinds are treated in a way that you could have preflop raised to $150, then I absolutely hate your $100 raise. I’m not saying I would raise (see next paragraph) I am saying that if I preflop raise it is always going to be for the maximum.

Now after my just writing all of that about your preflop raise size, I am going to throw a curve ball that is going to get plenty of readers of this this thread to say, “what the %$&#." Preflop you could have over-limped with KKJ7/ds. The 7 in your hand is horrible. Being in position without the initiative isn’t a bad thing, but there are not a lot of "in position without the initiative" disciples on this forum. To illustrate a point about this hand, let’s flip this around for a moment and pretend this hand is different without any of the straddling. Let’s pretend this is a normal 6 max game and the CO open raises and you are on the button next to act with KKJ7/ds or even KKJ8/ds. I am cold calling the CO open raise. It isn’t until KKJ9/ds that I am 3-betting and calling a 4-bet. So back to the real hand of this thread which is KKJ7/ds, that 7 in your hand is horrible. I would have over-limped on the button with your hand and been fine being in position without the initiative.

That covers preflop. I have to think more about postflop. All I’ll say for now about postflop is that with that SPR of 4.xx if you bet you aren’t folding to a raise. But I’m not saying you should bet, I need to think about it a little more.

How do you feel when we get C/R tho?

Not thrilled, buts its not terrible. Having the pair of 7 is helpful. Villain can xr with hands like 2p, wraps and combo draws that we do fine against. We probably have about 40% equity vs xr range.

Flop checkback is a bit akward when villain can turn a red backdoor flush draw and bet large into us, leaving us with poor visibility on many rivers.

So i'm not really convinced we really gain enough playability and implied odds to favor checkback over bet. Again this is a relatively range-friendly flop and xback would tell villain a lot about our hand composition/strength.

I am mostly open to different sizing arguments on flop, as we can choose between 2 and 3 streets of betting if villain does not raise. I don't think there is a good case for checkback.

I agree with monikrazy that as played the check-back is awkward. The villian probably has a lot of double suited hands in his range and the red backdoor flush draw is a problem for us (and he could have you crushed with the backdoor nut club draw). If I was forced to put Villain on a hand I would say he has AA with bad side cards because every non-AA hand the villian would have played hits this flop well, but he checked. Therefore, villian is probably hating this connected board. Or that would be some serious fancy play syndrome from Villain to check the flop here with a good hand.

But I would have never been in this exact situation with this number of players and pot size because I would have over-limped preflop.

Here is an additional thought. Because of Covid, many live poker rooms have reduced the maximum number of players per table to 7 or 8. A reasonable amount of these live hands might be played 6 handed because the casino is slow or players are away from the table taking a bathroom break or smoking. Even on random YouTube vlogs I’m seeing a lot of hands played 6 or 7 handed. Therefore, even though you are playing live, understanding online 6 max strategy is a huge advantage right now.

The hand in this thread was played 6 handed. The OP has described the villain as, “the best pro at the table.” The Villain is first to act in the CO and open limps. Red flags should have been going off the moment a good player open limped with only 6 players at the table. You don’t open limp 6 handed. Furthermore, the villain has position on the straddler. The rock straddle was the MP, who although he acts last preflop, will be out of position to the villain for the entire hand postflop. When the villain, who is “the best pro at the table” open limps 6 handed, I’m asking myself questions. Does Villain not know how to play 6 handed? It is valid to not expect everyone to instantly start playing perfect 6 max strategy. But I'm asking myself, is the villain trying to set up a limp re-raise?

If you couple the red flags from villain’s preflop actions with the dangler-ish 7 weakening our KKJ7/ds, then I’m fine over-limping preflop instead of raising. I’m not giving the villain the chance to limp re-raise and have me with nothing to say but a Scooby Doo “ruh roh.”

You're really letting villain own you if he can just limp whenever and you're only going to raise premiums behind him.

don´t know what the guy is doing, but we have a top 3% hand, so raise is obv fine

+1 to bet flop big

KKJ7/ds is a strong hand used to protecting your cold calling range.

You are correct that KKJ7/ds is a strong hand.

Everyone is running their own sims with their own bet sizes etc. But I have a question for you, is what I wrote about CO open raising and BU cold calling with KKJ7/ds correct or wrong? It is about protection your over-limping range by having strong hands in it. For example,

KKJ7/ds cold call
KKJ7/ss to king 3-bet
KKJ7/ss to jack cold call
KKJ7/triple suited cold call
KKJ7/rainbow cold call

You are going to get owned in PLO if you don't protect all parts of your range. That protection comes from putting some strong hands in every part of your range.


You are correct that KKJ7/ds is a strong hand (and I agree once we get down to 6 players I don't know what this guy is doing open limping).

I'll ask you the same question...

Is what I wrote about CO open raising and BU cold calling with KKJ7 correct or wrong? It is about protection your over-limping range by having strong hands in it.

I would hope every single person on this forum is raising here with KKJ9/ds. The question is what is the bottom of the range for raising here and when do you start over-limping. And I like your, "I don't know what this guy is doing" comment, there is a non-zero chance he going for the limp re-raise and we have to be Star Wars Admiral Ackbar and know "it's a trap."

Listen to the first 2 minutes.



In 6 max PLO you don’t not open-limp (unless that is part of your opening on the small blind strategy). In 6 max PLO you do not open-limp. Therefore, you are not going to find many resources on how to play against an open limp. Anything you do find is going to be pseudo-strategy with mostly just generalizations. For the love of the High Stakes PL Omaha sub-forum I went looking for something on the topic. After listening to over a dozen YouTube videos that took me over a hour, I found a tidbit. Is Dylan Weisman of Upswing Poker talking about game theory a good enough player to listen to on how to play against an open limp? Depending on what advertisement is playing on your 2+2 page right now, yup that is the guy you are looking at. So here is one of his Twitch/YouTube pieces, just listen to the first 2 minutes of the above video. In 6 max open limping is not a thing, therefore anything you find on the topic of playing against an open limp will be limited and you have to take what you can get, so read between the lines and disregard anything not applicable here like the small stakes rake part. Simply put, you raise tight against open limpers.

I gave an excellent reference point by showing a 6 max example of the CO open raising and that with KKJ7/ds on the BU we should be cold calling the open raise to protect our cold calling range. So it is not much of a stretch for us to be over-limping the CO open limp. #1 to protect our over-limping range. #2 you have to raise tight against an open limp, and for comparison the range for 3-betting against a CO open range when you are on the BU doesn't start until KKJ9/ds.

Is there a maniac at the tbl that we’re not aware of? This limp rr is not really a thing this deep especially coming from a « top pro »

i'm not sure which is funnier saying to limp with this sexy hand or critisizing his raise size pre which is fine
you don't have to pot your raises and in live poker it's fine to just go with round numbers like 100 in this spot
"protecting your over limping range" is complete nonsense. it's done by face up weak tight players who never push their equity in close spots, never 3 bet pre except for aces etc. the people who do this sort of thing are the types who play 1/2 plo forever and fit in with rest of the crowd that plays like 75/2 in those games. the 7 is not horrible. it's not great either. kkj2 would be a horrible dangler and still a clear raise pre. you can't just raise double suited aaj10 kkqj etc and limp everything else. if you can't play kkj7ds profitably which includes raising with it in postion pre you have no business playing 10/25 plo at all if your objective is to make money.

the only preflop question is whether or not to 4bet pre which is opponent specific

curious OP what made you say this is the best pro at the table? that really doesn't tell us much. he could be a really good player at a tough table or just some shitty reg who is better than some droolers at the same table. how specifically does he play?

Some people might not read every thread, but one of borg23's comments in The Betting Pot thread is extremely relevant here. Especially given this hand was played 6 handed. It is down right the funniest thing not posted in this thread, but relevant to this thread.

Read post #13, I won't spoil in for you but you be like wait what when you come back to this thread's 6 handed topic. But I'll give you a hint, he is in this thread talking about being an EV warrior without knowing EV.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...g-pot-1786416/

glad i made you laugh. keep inputting incorrect info into solvers and using them for live plo which is hilarious. have fun overlimping kkj7 ds on the button in a 6 handed rock game. that's a truly great above the rim super +ev play. the best part is that brilliant suggestion is after countless hours of hard work with them.

Borg23, are you saying Dwayne Johnson is in the game? Otherwise your Rock comment is actually wrong. But nice try.

After I posted the Dylan Weisman YouTube bit about having to raise tight against an open-limp, I thought this discussion was mostly over about KKJ7/ds not making the cut. THE ROCK IN MP yet to act further adds to Weisman's comments about having to play tight because the blinds and now a straddle are behind you. I thought the only thing left was for the OP to tell us how the rest of the hand played out. But here we are, so let’s go over this again...

#1 KKJ7/ds has a 3 card gap between the J and 7.

#2 The hand was played 6 handed.

Certain hands serve certain purposes in your different ranges.

I don’t care if you call it heuristics, problem solving, self discovery or practical method, but the goal as humans is to get a good approximation. For me, the moment I saw the 3 card gap between the J and 7, I knew KKJ7/ds was not a BU 3-bet against a CO open-raise. This information about not 3-betting was sufficient for me to conclude that it also was not an isolation raise against an open-limp. But let’s stick to the BU 3-bet against a CO open-raise for a moment and I’ll write my BU double suited KKxx 3-betting range versus a CO open-raise below.

Two pair
KK44+/ds

One pair with an ace
AKK*/ds

One pair without an ace
KKQT+/ds (only a 1 gap max)
KKJ9+/ds (only a 1 gap max)
KKT7+/ds (only a 2 gap max)
KK96+/ds (only a 2 gap max)
KK87/ds (no gaps allowed)
KK76/ds (no gaps allowed)
KK65/ds (no gaps allowed)

There is a bottom to everything and there you have it, the bottom to a BU 3-betting range versus a CO open-raise. Are there strong hands that don’t make the list? Sure, like I said there is a bottom to every range and you need some strong hands in your cold-calling range. So something as strong as KKQ9/ds doesn’t make the 3-betting range. And if you don’t believe me, then look it the **** up. Also note that the KKQT+/ds and KKJ9+/ds only have a maximum of 1 gap while the KKT7+/ds and KK96+/ds have a maximum of 2 gaps. Can you guess the reason that KKQT+/ds and KKJ9+/ds only have a maximum 1 gap? If you guessed domination you would be correct. <cough cough> Now might be a good time to remind everyone that the hand of this thread was KKJ7/ds. KKQ and KKJ hands have unique domination issues. But, good luck isolation raising KKJ7/ds with a 3 gap between the J and 7 with not only the blinds but the MP rock left to act.

I brought this up in post #10, see how with different suited versions of KKJ7 we BU cold-call a CO open-raise with the very strong double suited version (to protect our cold calling range) then 3-bet the strong single suited to the king versions and then we are back to cold-calling the weaker versions listed.

KKJ7/ds cold call
KKJ7/ss to king 3-bet
KKJ7/ss to jack cold call
KKJ7/triple suited cold call
KKJ7/rainbow cold cal

Certain hands serve certain purposes. There are way more double suited hands used to protect our cold-calling range than most people think. And people come into threads and make baseless comments like, “this hand is too good not to raise.” I just shake my head. Raising every single good hand is not how the game is played.

But hey this is just EV stuff about how to correctly play 6 handed I'm mentioning.

I didn't say playing tight was wrong so I'm not sure why you bolded that. I said not raising kkj7 ds is playing way too tight.

I'm absolutely 3 betting this hand on the button most of the time against all but the nittiest of nits, but even if I wasn't and it actually is wrong to 3 bet it (a totally different discussion) that doesn't mean it's wrong to raise it on the button after a weak open limp (have you seen the kind of absolute garbage people open limp call with in these live games??) The fact you're actually putting in all of this time on solvers but then telling me i should treat an open limp exactly the same as an open raise with the way people play live is absolutely mind boggling.

Keep playing on your solvers which ignore how people actually play in live games and shaking your head at me for having the audacity to raise this hand on the button after a limp. That's fine. I'll keep raising with it and make more from it and from all my buttons overall than I would by playing a weak tight passive style.

That is some heavy duty back tracking you just did. And I'll show you where you still have it wrong. Your mistake is the comment, "playing a weak tight passive style."

For illustrative purposes since you have already admitted in another thread that you've never used a solver, let's call them magical EV widgets...

CO open-raises and we are on the BU

4,200 magical EV widgets KKJ7/ds cold call
2,000 magical EV widgets KKJ7/ss to the king 3-betting

As you can see the double suited version is worth more than twice as much as the single suited to the king version. The KKJ7/ds version is worth one hell of a lot of magical EV widget.

What you don't see is
4,200 magical EV widgets KKJ7/ds cold-calling
4,000 magical EV widgets KKJ7/ds 3-betting

My grade school math teacher Mr. Fiore taught me that 4,200 is greater than 4,000. You are making a lot by incorrectly 3-betting (more than any single suited version would earn), but you are making less than by cold-calling. So if you cold-call it correctly or even if you 3-bet it incorrectly you are winning a lot of them damn magical EV widgets. The problem is your bad ass tough guy mentality is saying the better play is, "playing a weak tight passive style." But hey it is something you will never know, you already admitted in another thread that you have never used a solver. And it tickles me when the non-solver users want to back up their unsubstantiated claims with, "those live players are bad" type comments.

Funny stuff.

Makes me curious about your credentials actually. Possible to disclose how many years you played, stakes played and avg money earned/year?

I am willing to talk generalization, but not be too specific. I was born and raised in the Washington DC metropolitan area. Over 20 years ago, I started off counting cards at blackjack and playing poker at the Maryland volunteer fire department charity casinos. Shout out to anyone that remembers those casinos. Anyone remember Wally, the nicest guy on the planet? And as a tie in to this thread, we were playing limit $5/10 limit poker with a rock way back then. On the weekends, I often went to Atlantic City to count cards at blackjack because on the weekends the casinos were crowded enough for back counting and blending in. One of my friends from Maryland who also counted cards at blackjack got into advantage play video poker in Atlantic City. It was through this mutual friend that I met Allen “Chainsaw” Kessler.

In a story that I have already posted on 2+2 before, one day Allen and I are playing Double Joker (that is where he got his 2+2 handle) video poker at The Trump Plaza (yeah that Trump) and Allen said, “now that regular poker is in AC let’s go over to the Tropicana and play.” We sit down to play live poker at the Trop and Allen tells me that the guy Jerome in the 5 seat is a good poker player. The “no home Jerome” was Phil Ivey playing on a fake ID before he was 21 years old. Generalization not specifics. You do the math. I was playing poker in AC with Chainsaw and Phil Ivey before Ivey was 21 years old. I finally moved to AC because the poker action was so good. I lived there for at least 5 years. One year it snowed in March and it was so much snow I said to hell with it and moved to Las Vegas. I’m a little reluctant to post this part, but it is probably more accurate to say I moved to AC to join a certain blackjack team. You figure it out by that date I’ve mentioned. As for money, to not be too specific I am only going to say “over.” For those 5 years, per year I average over $75K counting cards on the blackjack team, over $50K playing poker and over $25K playing video poker.

I moved to Las Vegas and joined the Las Vegas part of the card counting blackjack team I mentioned before. I lived in Las Vegas for 10 years counting cards at blackjack and playing poker. There was not really any advantage video poker in Vegas except for stuff like putting in a ton of action on a video poker machine and getting entries into sweepstakes and hoping to win something in the sweepstakes. Or running around town trying to find a bank of video poker machines with a progressive royal and waiting for the royal to get high enough and trying to lock up a seat. Again I’m only going to say “over.” In the 10 years I lived in Vegas I averaged per year over $100k counting cards at blackjack and over $100K playing poker. The blackjack were consistent, but the poker was parabolic start at holdem, and testing the waters over time at every stake of omaha at Aria (and yes that limit Omaha game at Boulder Station LOL). And the over over million dollars I made playing blackjack was in less than 10 years because I eventually got backed off at Harrah’s Paris Las Vegas casino. I was read the no trespass card. Since it included all Harrahs’ properties and there are a lot of Harrahs’ properties I bailed on playing blackjack. I didn’t want to get no trespassed on any other Vegas casinos that had multiple properties. But my live poker and online poker winnings skyrocketed parabolically to fill the void.

As a side story, after a year of being no trespassed at all Harrahs’ properties, I emailed them asking if I could play in the World Series of Poker tournaments. I had been playing in that since before Harrahs even owned it and it was downtown at Binions. The dude in control of Harrahs’ operations emailed me back and said he wanted to look me in the eyes before making a decision and told me to come to his office. I didn’t know if it was a trap to trespass me when I entered the building so I printed out the email and put it in my pocket. I walk into the building, go to his office and he offered to buy me beer while we talked. Obviously he didn’t buy me a beer so much as comp me a beer. But he said that since I had the stones to show up and talk to him that he would let me play the WSOP tournaments, but I was not allowed to play any other games in the casino. And he wasn’t kidding about looking me in the eyes when he asked me did I understand the rules. But the dude was cool.

There you go. There was a college degree mixed in there and come on now, from my 2+2 handle it shouldnt be too hard to figure out where I went. So let’s end it there. I’ve have been playing advantage blackjack, video poker and poker for over 25 years. And I have lived a frugal life (except for a car). Maybe Allen “Chainsaw” Kessler rubbed off on me. There isn’t a thread that goes by when someone doesn’t take a jab at Allen for being frugal. But I’ve lived a frugal gambling life of more than 2.5 decades, never making less than $150k a year and making well “over” that per year in the last 7 years. I’m not being any more specific than that. But you do the math. And just like I left Atlantic City because of a snow storm, I left Las Vegas because of a heatwave. It was so ****ing hot, I closed my eyes thought of the best place in the United States to live and San Diego instantly came to mind. I called up a realtor, looked at a few places and bought a house on the beach in San Diego staring at the pacific ocean and paid for it in cash. Poker has been very good to me.

Grunching this:

Pre is super standard. Anything else is bad, unless you have very specific reasons to limp behind to 4b due to aggressive player to act. Limping to call is bad, 4betting is bad.

Flop, we're blocking a lot of the stronger hands that continue to a stab, and people also tend to underdefend their check range in these spots, so it's a clear bet for me. I'd go 50% or so, but I know some people like smaller. We can't fold this particular combo though, so in isolation, betting bigger for more FE is best. That said, we're mostly hoping to bomb turn if anything, anyway, as most AA w/ gutshot continues even bigger, so we don't lost that much FE by going smaller.

You crush this board range-wise. You're looking to bluff here. Your KK's sdv is limited vs such a strong range.

Interesting read. TY. Obv more than you had to but good. Reminds me of the chainsaw obv.

At least I admit that you probably have a good idea of what youre talking about which was the reason I asked. I do feel a possible inability in the social sphere, which sets you apart from some livepros. If theres a background at MIT its no surprise.

Prob trolled here lol. Congrats. Downgrade.

Great 4200 is more than 4000
Sorry you didn't learn that until 4th grade

But that's meaningless but the inputs into the solvers are wrong as well as the fact you're soley looking at the hand in a vacuum not even taking into account the lack of action you get overall when you play like this
It is weak tight passive

Look I don't pretend to be some wild crazy lag so I'm not trying to act like I rasie all kinds of garbage pre bc I'm some post flop wizard but it sa clear rasie and usually 3 bet in live 6 handed plo

That's actually your beloved Dylan's manuuver trying to talk up what crazy he action he is which is a total joke
I've played against him on wsop as well as love a few times
as well as seen a few of his youtube videos

I stopped watching when he showed some standa
rd hand where he backdoored nuts vs third nuts in some 3 or 4 bet pot and stacked the guy and said "my reputation got me paid off here" which is comical

I'm not saying he isn't a good player but it's clear based on how he actually plays that he's making such a rediculous comment hoping that people watch give him way more action when they should and I absolutely hate when people in poker do this as it's beyond insulting to anyone with a brain


But yea when I play in live games where people open limp j853 with a suited 5 I'm raising this hand every single time
If you tell me that if six gto bots in online plo are at the same table and it's slightly better ev to not rasie pre MAYBE you're right but I don't care because that's not the game we're discussing

If I ever reach a point where to make good money in poker I have to sit around all day studying sims I'll find other ways to make money
That sounds like absolute torture to me

This approach to live is poker flawed for a ton of reasons

If that's what interests you and you're playing in super tough online games and that's what you have to do to remain competitive then good for you and I wish you success

As someone who has dabbled in card counting over the years (and a lot more in the last couple of years profitably which as you know is really just being displined and not getting kicked ) I do find your background interesting

I do think a lot of people make a mistake in treating poker exactly like card counting when poker is far less rigid than counting

Your trespassed at harrahs story is pretty cool I had a similar one at a non harrah's property although nothing about the guy telling me to show up and look him in the eyes
Just discussed it with some pit game higher up management and made a similar agreement about poker

wheres this 10/25 game with the best pro limping 6 handed lol. I must come instantly