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Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns?

09-18-2013 , 01:53 PM
I am stuck in a 2/5 game. I have $400 and everyone covers me. I have lost a lot of hands with flopped sets and just getting killed. On my last buy in here...

I have AsQdJs8h and I make it $15 and we get 4 callers. I am in MP and the button is very active. UTG limped here and is very passive.

Flop is Ahjh3x. It is checked to me and I bet $45 and I get called by the button and UTG. I figure they can have FD and random A's in their hand here.

Turn is Qs and its checked to me and I check planning on check calling the button and seeing what UTG does here. Button bets $135 and UTG shoves. I now have 3 pair and am lost in the hand. I figure UTG has KT here almost always and I am not sure what the button has in this spot but I see him fire a lot of turns. Button is never bet folding here due to stack sizes.

This is a clear 100% fold right? I assume so...

How was my line with 2 pair? Should I bet/fold the turn? For some reason I am having a hard time playing 2 pair in this game. I need to fix a huge leak I have with these hands.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-18-2013 , 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cap217

This is a clear 100% fold right

How was my line with 2 pair? Should I bet/fold the turn? For some reason I am having a hard time playing 2 pair in this game. I need to fix a huge leak I have with these hands.
You're line is fine. No reason to b/f here, just burning money. C/f, next hand.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-18-2013 , 02:49 PM
What if button bets and UTG folds? Can I call?
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-18-2013 , 05:59 PM
I think not. You only beat BTN's semibluffs. He's pretty likely betting this for value against two and you're behind his valuerange. You can't draw to 6 outs with these odds even if you'd get the rest otr everytime, which you won't. Only hand I could figure he has here that you beat is KhKxxh and I'm not sure would he 3bet that hand pf or/and raise it on flop. If you call this assuming that then you have to call the river to a blank (or shove here) and you're risking you're whole stack on a really marginal spot where you only have 60d in the pot. So I'd fold definitely when it's a full ring.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-18-2013 , 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KalaMiesPaavo
I think not. You only beat BTN's semibluffs. He's pretty likely betting this for value against two and you're behind his valuerange. You can't draw to 6 outs with these odds even if you'd get the rest otr everytime, which you won't. Only hand I could figure he has here that you beat is KhKxxh and I'm not sure would he 3bet that hand pf or/and raise it on flop. If you call this assuming that then you have to call the river to a blank (or shove here) and you're risking you're whole stack on a really marginal spot where you only have 60d in the pot. So I'd fold definitely when it's a full ring.
What would you think of the button if he bets a set of j's on the turn?
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-18-2013 , 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cap217
What would you think of the button if he bets a set of j's on the turn?
I'd think you're still a huge underdog and the BTN is a huge donkey.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-18-2013 , 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KalaMiesPaavo
I'd think you're still a huge underdog and the BTN is a huge donkey.
I know i am behind his range here but i was questioning what we think of button if he had jj and bet it?

I agree w donkey but wanted to be sure.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-18-2013 , 10:22 PM
I know. I was just trying to make it sound funnier. He's a donkey. Either raise the flop or cback turn as played.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-22-2013 , 12:06 PM
Button did have jjxx and utg had ktxx. I folded. A on the river for button to win.

After seeing button playing this way, i have to play more aggro vs him. He is beating this game for $100k over the past few months though. Its just a run good bc he isnt good.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-22-2013 , 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cap217
What would you think of the button if he bets a set of j's on the turn?
I would think he's taking a totally standard line that any good player would in his spot
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-22-2013 , 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aesah
I would think he's taking a totally standard line that any good player would in his spot
Interesting. I kind of agree here based on action. But i assume this is a bet fold spot depending on stack sizes.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-22-2013 , 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aesah
I would think he's taking a totally standard line that any good player would in his spot
How come? No better hand folds and you take the risk of getting shoved and you can't really call. And there's practically no worse hands that will call that you couldn't valuebet against otr if it bricks. I don't really get betting flopped mid set here. What will you do otr if the A/Q pairs and you've gotten called ott? Sounds like if you bet JJ ott you're practically turning your hand to a bluff.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-22-2013 , 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KalaMiesPaavo
How come? No better hand folds and you take the risk of getting shoved and you can't really call. And there's practically no worse hands that will call that you couldn't valuebet against otr if it bricks. I don't really get betting flopped mid set here. What will you do otr if the A/Q pairs and you've gotten called ott? Sounds like if you bet JJ ott you're practically turning your hand to a bluff.
With the action so far why would button assume he's behind on the turn? Should he check behind to give any flush draws/2 pairs/gutters/lower sets a free card to outdraw him? You could quibble about sizing but I don't see how this isn't a bet for button, especially when his image is so active that it sounds like OP would have been very tempted to call with top 2 if UTG had folded.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-22-2013 , 10:13 PM
If the flush comes OTT I'd check back a set of jacks but checking back the turn is pretty bad on this board given the action... I didn't really see stack sizes/his sizing though OP format sucks

I'd prob b/f 100 if I was him though. I guess b/c for 400 ES isn't that bad

Last edited by smoothcriminal99; 09-22-2013 at 10:41 PM.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-23-2013 , 03:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KalaMiesPaavo
And there's practically no worse hands that will call that you couldn't valuebet against otr if it bricks.
yes, the 6/44 times the river doesn't complete any straights, pair any cards, or complete the flush we can get value from AQ on the river.

Alternatively, we could just get value from AQ 44/44 times on the turn.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-23-2013 , 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aesah
yes, the 6/44 times the river doesn't complete any straights, pair any cards, or complete the flush we can get value from AQ on the river.

Alternatively, we could just get value from AQ 44/44 times on the turn.
Does Hero bet AA 1/1 here? I'm not so worried about hero (if he does bet AA most of the time ott) that I am about the UTG. He can easily have Khxxh and in those combos he has KT way too often. As BTN we block all two pair combos and can assume that hero has propably some Axxx hand or if he has KKhxxh here we're propably getting c/r here. So what does that leave UTG with? Ofc he could easily have "anything" but our and Heros range block his made hands and leaves him propably w/ draws otf. I'm just feeling a bit foolish to b/f here. I understand your points of protecting the hand and I'm actually not arguing against that being a bad play but like I said I'd feel a bit uncomfy b/f here.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-23-2013 , 09:27 AM
I understand betting given the action otf and ott. Sizing is a bit messed up due to stack sizes but i guess he can bet/call if someone shoves.

I am actually surprised he checked the turn. I guess he thought someone could have aa and expect him to bet the flop but when it checks through 2x he has to bet.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-23-2013 , 05:18 PM
Just to understand button player for future sessions what was the amount of UTG shove on the turn that he called?

Last edited by R*R; 09-23-2013 at 05:45 PM.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-23-2013 , 09:47 PM
$500 to start the hand
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-24-2013 , 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KalaMiesPaavo
No better hand folds and you take the risk of getting shoved and you can't really call.
OP is about to beat BTN into the pot with worse if SB will just f***ing fold already.

I'm not saying it's bad, we beat tons of semi-bluffs like wheel wraps, gutter + fd that just paired, random floats, incorrect value bets, etc etc.

Against described villain and your short SPR on turn I think this would be a decent candidate to check/jam turn and realize our equity perfectly (assuming SB f***ing folds already), especially if you think he's messing around way too often.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-24-2013 , 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaDonk
OP is about to beat BTN into the pot with worse if SB will just f***ing fold already.

I'm not saying it's bad, we beat tons of semi-bluffs like wheel wraps, gutter + fd that just paired, random floats, incorrect value bets, etc etc.

Against described villain and your short SPR on turn I think this would be a decent candidate to check/jam turn and realize our equity perfectly (assuming SB f***ing folds already), especially if you think he's messing around way too often.
I dont think my top 2 are good here. I did think my flopped aj top 2 were good though. This q ott is a bad card for me i think.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote
09-24-2013 , 09:08 AM
Yeah I agree. I'd definitely default to check/folding but I can think of plenty of villains I'm check/shoving if they kindly clear out SB for me.

Edit: And I think the question is not whether, but how often, BTN should bet JJ here for protection. I'd venture a guess (nothing to back it up but intuition) that it should be around 25-40% and very villain dependent.

Last edited by OmahaDonk; 09-24-2013 at 09:15 AM.
Live: Flop 2 pair, how to we play turns? Quote

      
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