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Old 08-16-2020, 10:47 AM   #1
MartinK1979
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Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Live PLO 10/10 blinds.
Multiway pot with 4 players and 900 in the middle.
I am in MP and had only the preflop 3-bettor, a aggro loose guy left on me. he had me covered. My hand is AdJh9d2p
Flop: 9cTd2c
It is check to me, I bet 600 and get raised pot by the BTN.
Everybody folds and the action is back to me.
Pot is around 3500 and my stack is 2400.
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Old 08-16-2020, 11:06 AM   #2
ComeToButthead
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Fold pre.
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Old 08-16-2020, 02:16 PM   #3
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

So you have bottom two pair and no flush draw and get potted on? Not much to discuss, fold.
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Old 08-16-2020, 04:38 PM   #4
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

You might be priced in at this point. But i think check flop is the way to go.
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Old 08-17-2020, 01:34 AM   #5
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

This has to be one of the worst laid out hand histories I’ve ever seen.

Your hand is surprisingly weak 4 way otf. It’s also not a good starting hand which I imagine you know as you left out your action preflop. I would fold for 2400 more but call for 1800 more. It’s kinda ambiguous if you started with 2400 or you have 2400 left. I imagine you have around 33% equity.
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Old 08-17-2020, 03:47 AM   #6
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

fold pre, fold after getting raised, don't bet the flop.


which suit is p
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Old 08-17-2020, 04:26 AM   #7
MartinK1979
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothcriminal99 View Post
This has to be one of the worst laid out hand histories I’ve ever seen.

Your hand is surprisingly weak 4 way otf. It’s also not a good starting hand which I imagine you know as you left out your action preflop. I would fold for 2400 more but call for 1800 more. It’s kinda ambiguous if you started with 2400 or you have 2400 left. I imagine you have around 33% equity.
Starting with 3200€ before this hand. Called 240 preflop and lead out for 600€. My equity was 50%...and i run into TJQK without club draw.
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Old 08-17-2020, 07:39 AM   #8
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

a) gotta agree with smoothcriminal, description of hand history is really bad, lots of (important) information missing
b) talking about the hand itself (after having already made a questionable call pre), imho you have to put the raiser on a range, and then u are def. not 50% equity, actually far from it.

what are his possible hands?
vs set you are toast,
vs. combo draw (pair + gut shot +flush draw for example), you are toast
even against top 2 you are in really bad shape, so on average i'd say your equity is below 25%

by the way, where is this game going, what's the location? sounds fun ... will definitely wanna visit next time i'm in germany ;-)
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:59 AM   #9
MartinK1979
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

I was in MP and have called a single raise with this hand, than BTN 3-bets and got 2 callers, I was closing the action and called 200 more in a pot of 700 with my suited Ace...The another callers in this hand were: BB (1k stack loose passiv tight guy and UTG (loose aggro with 5k stack)..
My toughts: he is not pushing with a really strong hand here after my fishy looking lead out..if he had a really strong playability in this spot, he is looking to keep the another deep stack in the hand. So my hand feel stronger after his raise. Another consideration: he was trying to play his aggression and his stack and know he had some foldequity because I will not risk my stack here very often.
I was going to call in this spot, unfortunately, the result was not in my favor but my decision was right here to stack of and going for this 6k pot with my hand..
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Old 08-17-2020, 11:59 AM   #10
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Well, let’s agree to disagree then.
I think his hand is stronger (not weaker) with other big stacks behind him, but whatever.
Bottom line: you are playing (if I understood everything correctly like stack sizes etc) a 600BB pot with bottom 2 no flush draw. That can never be correct.

But, to finish on a positive note:
I’m hosting a game in New York City twice a week, you’ll always have a seat there my friend.
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:31 PM   #11
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Fold Pre.
Don't Bet Flop.
Don't Call All-In After Betting Flop.

Basically do the exact opposite of everything you did - not trying to be a dick, but this is literally the exact opposite approach you should take to playing Omaha (getting squeezed in multi-way pots with weak hands pre, betting with the weakest possible made-hand with no draws when we could've gotten a free card, calling it all off when there is no chance we are a favorite and could be drawing dead [if not razor thin]).
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Old 08-17-2020, 03:57 PM   #12
MartinK1979
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

I am more a feel/instinct player and not a GTO fan.
I like doing what I feel, is the right play in this certain situation. What you guys suggest would be the right play in vacuum. But there is no vacuum in a live cash game, which is about 5 hours long, which some crazy stuff and some crazy spots allready.
In this spot with history and table dynamic and players tendencies, view of me an my play..I decided to lead out and have to face a decision for my whole stack..I am down 2k at this point and the one thing I know at this point is the possibility to comeback strong in this Session and to win one of my biggest pots ever. My hand is no great I know...but I know what this guy is trying to do and try to show to other players at the table: I am not raise the BTN to fold or to call to this fishy looking lead out of this guy, so f*** off I will raise here. And you know guys, I was right, I had my 50% equity here, better than I ever expect to have..
And let me say something:
That is poker for me, that is the game I like to play. Facing big decisions and play always with passion and with my heart.
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Old 08-17-2020, 04:19 PM   #13
Chad_1982
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

... the thing you say about being down 2K at this point (which means, your result at this time influences the way you play a hand) tells you all you need to know ...

Good luck buddy, you’ll need it.
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:11 PM   #14
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Fwiw this hands backdoor potential is pretty strong and can still have up to 35% or even a little higher against a value range. Obviously stronger hu as our bad straights win much less multiway.

So i think the suggestions that this is a fold after betting are a bit hasty.

Last edited by monikrazy; 08-17-2020 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 08-18-2020, 03:58 AM   #15
Chad_1982
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK1979 View Post
I am more a feel/instinct player and not a GTO fan. I like doing what I feel, is the right play in this certain situation. ...

That is poker for me, that is the game I like to play. Facing big decisions and play always with passion and with my heart.
Ok, that makes way more sense now, understand your reasoning behind all this.
My only question: Why are you discussing this in a poker strategy forum then?
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Old 08-19-2020, 01:49 PM   #16
SocraticGambler
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK1979 View Post
I am more a feel/instinct player and not a GTO fan.
I like doing what I feel, is the right play in this certain situation. What you guys suggest would be the right play in vacuum. But there is no vacuum in a live cash game, which is about 5 hours long, which some crazy stuff and some crazy spots allready.
In this spot with history and table dynamic and players tendencies, view of me an my play..I decided to lead out and have to face a decision for my whole stack..I am down 2k at this point and the one thing I know at this point is the possibility to comeback strong in this Session and to win one of my biggest pots ever. My hand is no great I know...but I know what this guy is trying to do and try to show to other players at the table: I am not raise the BTN to fold or to call to this fishy looking lead out of this guy, so f*** off I will raise here. And you know guys, I was right, I had my 50% equity here, better than I ever expect to have..
And let me say something:
That is poker for me, that is the game I like to play. Facing big decisions and play always with passion and with my heart.
Sounds like you are justifying things based on how you like to play - we all play based on a combination of elements that always include feel/reads/momentum/etc. It's not as simple as being Game Theory, there are multiple dynamics at play that need to be accounted for.

The reason everyone hates the spot you put yourself in I explained previously - the goal in PLO is to dominate your opponents ranges when the money is getting shoveled in.

That board is incredibly likely to have hit your opponent's range in a raised pot; most people playing raised pots are playing bigger cards and a 9-10 board gives an incredibly amount of wraps/sets/two-pair/etc.

Play however you want bro; go off of feel, do it for the thrill, for the "passion and the heart." We are just analyzing things from an outside perspective to try and help you gain some insight; your mindset is something only you can know (we can't play as you).

If you are forcing all-ins unnecessarily and praying for 50% equity so you can "come back strong in this session" it sounds like you are going to be donating more stacks in the near future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Fwiw this hands backdoor potential is pretty strong and can still have up to 35% or even a little higher against a value range. Obviously stronger hu as our bad straights win much less multiway.

So i think the suggestions that this is a fold after betting are a bit hasty.
I think that's a valid point - however, one mistake begets another right?

Don't call PRE, situation avoided.
Don't bet flop, situation avoided.

We played PRE, we bet the flop - the grave has been dug, time in crawl in and shovel the dirt, right?

Not saying it's even a fold, just that it's a completely avoidable situation - the opponent's range is wraps, sets, two-pair w/draws; it absolutely destroys us, that's why we aren't in this pot to start with.
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Old 08-20-2020, 06:07 AM   #17
Chad_1982
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Good analysis, great summary SocraticGambler.

But i guess your first line already said it all:
MartinK is obviously not looking for help to improve his game, different new ways to look at his play, but simply for justification of what he did was right. That's it.

So no need to discuss this any further imho.
Chad out.
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Old 08-20-2020, 08:19 AM   #18
MartinK1979
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad_1982 View Post
But i guess your first line already said it all:
MartinK is obviously not looking for help to improve his game, different new ways to look at his play, but simply for justification of what he did was right. That's it.
What you know about me?
I am not saying my play was right nor I am not listen to any of your advice guys, I say: you can give a technical GTO advice here in this fourm but no one of you who was not involved in the game, can give a psychological/metal advice. What I was feeling during the hand, what my intention was, why I was calling preflop with this "garbage" hand ??? and so on..
If somebody give an advice here is always a "vacuum" advice, how a hand should be play against a certain range in this moment without looking into the past...
But no one can give an advice how to play a player..nobody know his tendencies, nobody know his play in position on the BTN..I was playing against villian some of my session and can certainly say: he is very aggro in a lot of situations...And this situation was one of them..he could have a lot of hands of course some strong combo draws, top2, topset and so one..but in this situation, I feel he was somekind of weak there..and that was my feeling not more and not less...

What i try to say: sometimes is all about feelings and you have to go with it, or let it go...I decided to go with it and pay the price for it.
Thank you!!
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Old 08-20-2020, 12:19 PM   #19
Chad_1982
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Relax buddy.
You really seem to take all this way to personal, nobody is critizising you, but your play.
It's your money, and you can do with it whatever you want.

And yes, you are correct, the way you "feel about a hand or a situation" should always be taken into consideration, it's what people usually call a read.

Try to look at it this way:
A read is what tips the scale into one direction or another, let's say it's 49-51 or close like this, then you go with your read.
You are doing this in a situation where the odds against you being right are overwhelming, if i remember correctly the hand villain is raising you with is absolutely at the bottom of his range. With a little more GTO, strategy, solid play (call it what you want) in the beginning you will simply put yourself in way less critical decisions like this one ... i guess that's all everyone is trying to tell you.

Cheers.
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Old 08-20-2020, 10:59 PM   #20
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

I would just call and evaluate the turn
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Old 08-21-2020, 06:01 PM   #21
SocraticGambler
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK1979 View Post
But no one can give an advice how to play a player..nobody know his tendencies, nobody know his play in position on the BTN..I was playing against villian some of my session and can certainly say: he is very aggro in a lot of situations...And this situation was one of them..he could have a lot of hands of course some strong combo draws, top2, topset and so one..but in this situation, I feel he was somekind of weak there..and that was my feeling not more and not less...
We can't know those intangibles, so they are irrelevant to us - we haven't played against the player in the past, don't have hand history with him to recall on the fly, don't know how you were playing specific hands against him prior this session and in prior sessions.

If the button raises you POT on that board w/that action there is no way you are good; it's not a bluff, it's a semi-bluff at best. Most semi-bluffs are favorites against us (i.e. QJ10x / KQJx/ J87x) and a lot of them actually crush us; his range also includes 10-9 and 99/1010 so we could be practically dead already and not even know it.

You are literally calling it off praying for 50% equity based on "feel" that he is weak, when his actions indicate he isn't weak at all - if he was weak, why would he be raising into you on that specific board? Typically people are not leading in your spot without 10-9/99/1010 or wraps, so he is saying "I have the equivalent of a wrap or a set and have no problem getting the money in" when he raises here.

More power to you for trusting your reads, but I think you are playing this game like it's No Limit Hold Em' and not Pot Limit Omaha - the bluffing range is so thin in PLO that there aren't a lot of flops like this where guys are truly weak and bluffing all the monies.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:59 PM   #22
Loctus
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK1979 View Post
10/10 blinds.
Multiway pot with 4 players and 900€ in the middle.
My hand is AdJh9d2
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Old 08-22-2020, 08:28 PM   #23
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

wow this was painful to read, atrocious reasoning. I'm all about making unconventional plays bc of reads, but no "read" will get you to more than 50% equity in this spot unless the dude is legit brain dead.
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Old 08-23-2020, 01:03 AM   #24
MartinK1979
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

I got lucky to have 50% here and didn't expect that. Please read my post. I was just following my read and knew his tendencies..I am not sure if I would play this hand the same way again probably not..but again: sometimes you have to face decisions even with hands like this one: and if you don't do it your are doing somethings wrong in this game.
Just my opinion.
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Old 08-23-2020, 04:05 AM   #25
Chad_1982
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Re: Live 10/10 blinds bottom two pair, deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinK1979 View Post
sometimes you have to face decisions even with hands like this one: and if you don't do it your are doing somethings wrong in this game.
Just my opinion.
Let me give it to you very straight then:
Either you change that "opinion", or you will never be a winning player on the long run.

And that is not an opinion.
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