[converted_hand][hand_history]Ignition - $5 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 5 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

Hero (BTN): $2,394.61 (478.9 bb)
SB: $1,705.23 (341 bb)
BB: $500.00 (100 bb)
UTG: $457.63 (91.5 bb)
CO: $164.76 (33 bb)

SB posts $2.50, BB posts $5.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $7.50) Hero has J T 9 K
2 folds, Hero raises to $17.50, SB raises to $57.50, fold, Hero raises to $177.50, SB calls $120.00

Flop: ($360.00, 2 players) J 3 Q
SB checks, Hero bets $171.38, fold


Heros sizing?

Vision doesn't get close to being able to model 340bb deep (sick brag btw!) But I doubt the 4b is an error (it is at 100bb) although I doubt its necessary.

OTF the deeper you are the more you want the turn and river to be able to hit our hand if we are going to open up the action and build the pot so we will want the backdoors I believe. This flop is also favorable for SB 3b call 4b so I don't think we get a high Cbet freq and would trend towards infrequent larger sizing's.

I cant prove any of the above so will be interested to see what others post.

Because of the high rake on Bonition, there are a lot of players that don’t play with a cold calling range from the small blind, even at this stake. There are times I’ll play for 8 hours straight and no matter if it is good players or bad players, I’ll never see a small blind cold call of a button open raise. The small blind is actually one of the best played positions by the player pool in some ways. Sure they lose some value, but the player pool is thinking to themselves, “in the small blind preflop I’m 3-betting or folding and I want a hand with a nice Ace, nice KKxx, very nice broadway pairs, or double suited rundowns with at least a broadway card.

In case some don’t know, on Bonition, 24 hours after the hand is played you can download the hand history and see everyones hole cards. I often go searching for player pool tendencies. I also go searching to find the player pool bottom of it’s range. The bottom of the player pool’s range on double suited rundowns is surprisingly tight, for a lot of players it stops at T987/ds, people aren’t even playing 9876/ds. I play two stakes higher than this hand or one stake higher if there is no game going at the higher stake. But the player pool tendencies I am mentioning are valid for this high stakes hand too. Versus a button open raise, the small blind is colding calling 0% of the time and 3betting about 11% of the time.

Therefore, although you have a nice hand and you hit this board nicely, you actually would have preferred that your wide button opening range had connected with a low board. The small blind has almost no low cards and you win those low boards uncontested over and over again. So don’t be mad you won a flop with two broadway cards uncontested. Broadway cards are all the small blind has in his range. The small blind having a set of queens or jacks is a fair threat. There is also a real threat of the small blind having the same wrap as you or better since he has a lot of aces in his range.

When I see a post like this, I assume you wanted a flop call. As I have already pointed out, you probably should be happy your opponent folded on a 2 broadway flop. But if you want to talk about bet sizings, let’s start with the Bonition reality that someone is always sitting on a 30bb stack (the CO in this hand). Two stakes higher the minimum buy-in moves to 50bb, but besides that stakes, every other Bonition stake is 30bb minimum buy-in. Since there is always a short stack at the table, it would be wise to learn how to deal with short stacks and a 33% pot sized bet is part of that strategy. So yadda yadda yadda about short stacking, I’m just saying you have a 33% bet size in your arsenal. This particular hand is deep stacked, but if in your heart you wanted a call, then betting 33% pot or 50% pot on the flop will do the trick most of the time.

But trust me brother, don’t go hoping for 2 broadway card flop calls on Bonition from a small blind who 3-bet preflop.

People fold 9876ds pf?

Yes, I have player pool tendencies where the bottom of people's 3-betting range in the small blind is T987/ds. If it is shocking, it's no big deal, there is a bottom to every range. Look up the double suited rundown bottom of a 100bb SB3B versus BUOR range, what did you find?

Depending on the rake it is 9876/ds, 8765/ds or 7654/ds. Remember we are talking 3-betting. And I've already mentioned a lot of small blind players on Bonition, because of the bad rake, are playing 3-bet or fold from the small blind. I also said I play one or two stakes higher, and it is a without a doubt a nit fest from the small blind. If it makes you feel better, pretend I said the bottom of the 3-betting range I've seen is 8765/ds.

The USA is trapped with crappy poker site choices. Bonition equals Bovada or Ignition. If you play on Bonition, you damn sure better be winning at the table because there is bad rake and no virtually rake back. This having to win at the tables because there is bad rake and no rake back has created a culture of folding out a lot of hands from certain positions.

Half pot seems fine - sb is going to have plenty of give-ups from hands that didn't connect or barely connected.

In general i think solvers prefer larger sizes deep, because they like being able to set up all-in scenarios for river when villain only calls. So i think they would start at 2/3 psb or higher.

Against strong opponents i think we do well to similarly adopt larger sizings, but against weaker ones much more willing to mix - very few bad options, even xback is decent.

Your assumption would be wrong, I definitely didn't want a call. Unless I flop the stones, I want will always take a fold. I should of posted the "hero ???" Instead of the sizing HH. My question was more along the lines of "what sizing is going to get max value from villains range while not giving him too good of a price with a hand like AK93ds for instance with 1 or 2 bdfds."

As far as the bottom of SB 3b range, twice today I was shown 9653ds and 7642ds and that's just fresh from today. So maybe at 5/10--10/20 its different. ( I would expect so because the difference between 1/2 and 2/5 is night and day).

I'm 4betting IP anytime i have 4 cards 9 or higher that are ds or 3 connected headed by a suited Ace when I'm this deep. I dont have a solve for this but I know I want to make the nuts and you will win more money with straights than any other hand. I will also open my 3B calling range when OOP and avoid 4betting some of the weaker 4b hands that benefit from low SPR spots that 100bb play would create.

I think my answer is I should have some checks in this spot as well and this hand could be one of the candidates. With 2 bdfds I think its a bet. I think any KJTx,QT9x also fit the bill. I think ABBx ( B=broadway) should always be a bet as well.

Yeah I assumed the way it was phrased that you were like, "damn it he folded."

As for preflop, GreatBigOne posted that for 100bb the 4bet is wrong, but possibly right for deeper. Monikrazy posted the reason it is probably right because of trying to set up turn or river shoves with preflop and postflop play. Answer20 has made some nice posts trying to nail down the importance of the idea of bet sizing to create the turn or river shove depending on the situation and stack sizes. Too many people are just mashing buttons without thinking about future street goals of setting up close to perfect SPR's of 4 and 1. My guess is that if a solver had unlimited bet sizing it would be setting up a lot of future street SPR's of 4 and 1.

You might need 2 backdoor flush draws to really like to bet this flop. Since you 4-bet preflop, the small blind has to think you have a fair amount of AAxx hands many of which are obviously going to have a nut suit, therefore I'm thinking the small is happy to see a rainbow flop.

Another thing about the 4-bet preflop in a situation like this, I only do it if I have the TEN in my hand. My rational is the old, you can't make a straight without a T or a 5. I want the T in my hand instead of needing it to be on the board. The importance of the T shows up a lot in range construction, for example, an AKT9 might be better than "higher" AKxx hands. The same applies, I like your [KT][J9] better than a "higher" [KQ][J9].

I'll take your word for it. games are looser on ACR/BCP.

yes i agree 100%.

also villain had AKQ9 which i dont know if its a mistake for him to fold or not. i started a 4 way 350BB sim yesterday so ill know in about a month LOL

ACR looser than Ignition? Surely you people jest.

In the News, Views and Gossip subforum about a month or two back, someone posted a chart of the biggest winners and losers for the year on trackable poker sites. Posting winners is cool, but I’m opposed to posting losers, therefore I won’t go searching for it and post it here. But the biggest losers from WPN (ACR/BCP/TP) were the who's who of the WPN monthly rewards leaderboard. A lot of players on WPN are mass rakeback rewards grinders and most lose at the tables. And that is the difference between WPN and Bonition. There are virtually no rakeback rewards at Bonition, you have to win at the tables. Bonition's bad rake and no rakeback rewards drastically changes certain positional play. Many wise players on Bonition in the small blind are playing a 3-bet or fold strategy even at the highest stakes. Either poker site is fine and a player's personality and skill set matters. At WPN, over the course of a year, you can lose $50,000 at the tables and still show a profit after WPN's rakeback rewards. On Bonition, you have to win at the tables.

The conversation gets confusing a bit when mixing talking about fish and skilled players. There are plenty of fish at both WPN and Bonition. You could easily have a poll thread where many people strongly give their opinions why one has more fish than the other. However, I'm guessing Bonition would win the poll. But regardless as to which site has more fish, as a skilled player on Bonition, you have to win at he tables because there is virtually no rakeback rewards.

You open raised pot, the villain 3-bet pot and you 4-bet pot. This created an SPR of about 4.25 and is pretty much a two street game over any of the three postflop streets.

I wonder if a solver would ever choose to min-4bet (mostly without an ace plus a few AAxx hands for balance/deception) to around $115 creating a flop pot of $235 which would be an SPR of about 6.8 making it a three street game. It could then use a 33% cbet sizing on the flop to create a scenario of pot on turn and pot on river.

I dont know, I only use one preflop sizing as adding multiple sizings increases the size of the game tree astronomically.

I really want to know what my 4b range should look like and I want to know my 3b range from SB/BB. I assume at some point it will start flatting Aces due to SPR not being low enough. I might of exaggerated a month, it will probably be a week or so though.

From what I understand, super deep like this it's normal to use 1 sizing only, something medium big, at least in 3bpots. I feel like in this spot, it's okay to split to 50 and 100, but I think it's generally okay unless you know exactly how you're splitting.

Also I was told this deep we actually flat majority of our continue range pre, including a ton of AA. It's sort of surprising but apparently that's a thing.

Looking forward to yor sim results Gibson

This is a fun interesting thread, I'm glad I re-read it, I completely forgot to comment on the reveal of the small blind's actual holding.

I think most of us live in a 100bb mindset and the rake realities at the stake we play and then try to not screw things up too bad when our stack grows deep. Since I have been in here talking about small blind play, I might as well point out stuff since we know small blinds hand.

In the small blind versus a button open raise...

[AKQ]9 at 100bb for micro and mid stakes rake, this hand isn't a cold-call or raise. At 100bb high stakes rake on a normal site this could be a cold call, but on Bonition at this stake and rake it doesn't qualify as a cold-call. So that's the 100bb stuff and then since this hand was played deep, most of us just use best judgement to say, "okay do I make any changes in my 100bb strategy now that I'm deep?"

It looks like the small blind played it bad preflop and/or played it bad post flop to give up on that SPR. But I'm not sure. It will be interesting to see the sim.

My quick take on pre-flop analysis:

Kjt9ds is standard open

Akq9 suited 3 to the ace is marginal, this deep we need to make adjustments to our range, and this hand should be downgraded
Fold >3!>call

After 3! I think fold to the 4! is ok - while it is up to debate exactly what % of hands we fold, this hand is no doubt one of our weakest and postflop playability is average.

Is kjt9 a good 4!? I doubt it, we should be cautious of 4! Hands with such high domination potential from other broadway hands - we are very unhappy if villain 5! We have so many better ds combinations to choose from, most of which face easier decisions vs 5!



Finally - is villain's decision to xf flop for 1/2 pot correct? To me, it seems quite bad. If he is folding to that sizing, i much prefer a donk lead and giving up to a raise.

Ask the dealer what the price of bitcoin is. After we are told proceed to pot it.

I don't like giving 'correct' pot odds to call in PLO (even if I have a made hand), this bet offers better than 3 to 1. Most 4b holdings should still be better than 25% with this Flop.

I think $240 is fine here IP or OOP. 8, 9 and A are nut cards where as K/T are not and we pretty much hate a Q, but may have to bluff at it IP if checked to.

Similar sizing ($480) OTT gives us a 2/3 pot size bet for the River shove if needed. GL

Excellent answer..

What does “correct” mean?

I love building pots when I can call shoves and don’t have to fold my equity on the flop as is the case here because of your nut outs. I love inducing bluffs when I can jam over and get folds and scoop huge pots because of my opponent’s stack size after facing a 1/4 to 2/3 pot flop bet. Galfond etc makes many 1/4 and 1/5 flop sizings in PLO similar to 1/3 flop sizings solvers have pushed in hold em.

A better question is how to combat this as Villian OOP. Tightening your range is part of it, floating the flop with sets is part of it, floating inevitable bluffs on board-pairing turns and donking river some percent of the time is part of it, 5B bluffing pre is part of it. Just limping OOP versus specific opponents etc

i mean it's pretty obvious how to counter tiny bets as OOP, call a ton and a raise a lot, unless villain has a massive range / equity advantage

Effective SPR and board texture becomes very important in when you re-raise, when you call, and yes when you fold because position is worth an extra street of betting which can be for entire stacks and massively effects ev.

E.g. Flop has flush and straight draws. Whatever the specific texture. Button downbets flop 1/5. So pot would be $500 going to turn with opponent's effective $1500 back. There is then a 3-1 SPR and a 1/5 chance of flush completing turn as well as straight cards, visible to opponent or not, you can't continue to bluff profitably or tell a story on which effects ev. More specifically ->

9TX flop and a J comes on turn, opponent can't continue to rep top-set and just jam-bluff turn. Bluffing possibilities gets shut down in such situations which effects ev. However if opponent bet flop 3/4 or pot, the SPR on turn is reduced and bluffing possibilities increase. If the SPR is 2 player can continue bluffs on all turn cards. It would visibly make sense to jam a J turn at SPR 1 with a set etc. So bet sizing is very important and can lock players OOP into high SPR turn spots, which are very difficult to play without an advanced floating and donking river strategy that you see from bots online

Correct means giving your opponents a +EV spot to just flat. Granted in PLO there are spots where even a pot bet can't create a -EV situation. In this spot here the SB is plenty deep, so I'm going to charge 'more' in an effort to position the hand for stacks.

While I agree you don't need to play for stacks every hand I also don't want to give my opponent too much of a discount to continue when I feel that their range has connected with the Board 'a lot'.

Now on, like, K82r .. sure, 1/4-1/3 pot is fine since there are essentially no nut cards that can come on the Turn. GL