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Old 04-10-2018, 05:23 PM   #1
Irungoodpre
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Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

Since the low stakes live games tend to make it in this forum I came here...
At Hollywood Columbus our PLO is a $2 small and big blind structure with almost all hands being straddled from the button to $5...

Pre-flop...
Villain: SB ($500) limps ~ (3 more limps after)
Me: LJ ($600) AsQsJsTc raise to $20

I buy the button, SB calls and 2 of the 3 limpers call so we see the flop 4 way.

Flop is KsTd7d pot=$90
2 checks, goof next to me leads for $12, he's mostly just having fun and his bet means very little. I decide I don't want to just call so I make it $65 and heres where the hand begins...

SB check raises pot to $268, however he did this by going all in with a stick of greens ($500) (a possible tell). Mr. 1/8th donk bet folds leaving me heads up and facing $203 more. This kid is not a maniac but his range here is definitely weighted towards nut flush draws. I can fold here, no question but I have a feeling he doesn't have much. Normally I'd just jam over the top and it would go in, but I decide to just flat leaving $230 behind and a plan to fold to any diamond even if i make my wrap, and get it in on all other cards. Do you players feel like this is a reasonable line or should I have just folded?

Here are some numbers too
My hand v bare nut flush on flop is 55%; on turn 75%
My hand v bare top set on flop is 45%; on turn 25%

I'm only in bad shape to Flush+top pair type hands, and I have good reason to believe he wouldn't play it like that if he actually had that much equity.
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Old 04-10-2018, 05:45 PM   #2
endodocdc
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irungoodpre View Post
Since the low stakes live games tend to make it in this forum I came here...

At Hollywood Columbus our PLO is a $2 small and big blind structure with almost all hands being straddled from the button to $5...



Pre-flop...

Villain: SB ($500) limps ~ (3 more limps after)

Me: LJ ($600) AsQsJsTc raise to $20



I buy the button, SB calls and 2 of the 3 limpers call so we see the flop 4 way.



Flop is KsTd7d pot=$90

2 checks, goof next to me leads for $12, he's mostly just having fun and his bet means very little. I decide I don't want to just call so I make it $65 and heres where the hand begins...



SB check raises pot to $268, however he did this by going all in with a stick of greens ($500) (a possible tell). Mr. 1/8th donk bet folds leaving me heads up and facing $203 more. This kid is not a maniac but his range here is definitely weighted towards nut flush draws. I can fold here, no question but I have a feeling he doesn't have much. Normally I'd just jam over the top and it would go in, but I decide to just flat leaving $230 behind and a plan to fold to any diamond even if i make my wrap, and get it in on all other cards. Do you players feel like this is a reasonable line or should I have just folded?



Here are some numbers too

My hand v bare nut flush on flop is 55%; on turn 75%

My hand v bare top set on flop is 45%; on turn 25%



I'm only in bad shape to Flush+top pair type hands, and I have good reason to believe he wouldn't play it like that if he actually had that much equity.


Your flop raise is too small imo.
I would weight villains range to more nutted combo draws rather than a bare nfd. I agree he can have top set here as well as top2 with straights and/or fds
I like flatting his raise since you have position.. He would def just continue betting with top set on diamond turns so look for any tells on diamond turns before deciding to auto give up
You have bdfd which is good enough to call flop



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Old 04-11-2018, 02:10 AM   #3
ecv
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

As played and without additional reads, I would flat the flop. The flop is very draw heavy, and you are behind a lot of combo hands like tp/2pr + flush draw + blockers that just turn your hand into a very mediocre equity hand.

If I flat and see a CR, I would just flat again. Note that this line retains a lot of my positional advantage with significant money still behind, and this is +++ev.

HU against the small flop bet, I would pot it, reading it as a blocker bet for a flush draw.
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Old 04-11-2018, 05:10 AM   #4
ReGen
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

If you call, pot will be something like 600 with something like 220 behind, right? So on the turn there is esentially 1/3 pot left, so if you just call you will probably fold some turns that you should not fold which I think is worse than getting it in. I think you are playing way too shallow to trick around with calling, just get it in and scoop on a 2c Jh runout!
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:35 AM   #5
SolarAU
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

I agree with the above poster, there is always a risk of making mistakes on future streets. Getting it in now prevents you from making any mistakes and overall I believe your average equity in this spot will be reasonable enough to GII.
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Old 04-15-2018, 02:23 AM   #6
ecv
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolarAU View Post
I agree with the above poster, there is always a risk of making mistakes on future streets. Getting it in now prevents you from making any mistakes and overall I believe your average equity in this spot will be reasonable enough to GII.
I guess getting it in is fine if you donít trust your post-flop play. Given reasonable SPRs (which is possible here), our position can force them into very awkward situations ó for example, they reveal their hand strength, they give you a free card, or they bluff into the nuts. I would assume that hero would have a good read on the tendencies of the villains and can adapt his play accordingly.

Guessing that hero has enough equity to seek out getting it in here strikes me as cavalier and a waste of the power of position.

Also, my suggested line would result in $360 or so in the pot with 350 effective behind. Flop line is check-12-12-126-fold-126, so pot is 90+12+126+126. As played with the initial flop raise that is then check-raised, I think the only line is to get in due to spr, but thatís a fault of the initial flop raise and is not a required (or even optimal) line. Just wanted to clarify since my original reply didnít specify which bet I was suggesting to flat.
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:55 AM   #7
ReGen
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

In my opinion the decision is not based on trusting or not trusting oneīs postflop play, but on the assumption on how the Villain will play on different types of boards and how we will react to that play, which - assuming the Villain pushes his last 200ish into 600ish on (almost) all turns - almost inevitably will lead us to fold in some spots where we should not fold, which in this case is much worse than letting the board run out (getting it in).

If the situation would be as decribed in the post above, it would be a different ballgame, especially since we can make the opponent make mistakes with a pot bet remaining to play for. However, as played we are the only ones that open up ourselves to mistakes by cold-calling and folding when we are ahead/crushing would be a crucial mistake. And if we intend to call any turn we have no reason at all not to get all the money in now.
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:48 PM   #8
borg23
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

your hand isn't nearly as good as you think on the flop

hand likes bare nut flush draw with no pair, straight blockers etc are possible but unlikely

You're pretty dead against a realistic range except against a dry set- which you don't even think he has to begin with.

Sticking in 6x pot with a wrap on a flush board when 4 people see the flop is a bad idea. Trust me I've learned the hard way.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:34 PM   #9
BDHarrison
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

Has your dinky-sized flop raise made you paranoid that SB views you as weak and is semibluffing a draw?

Could how he bet have been a tell? Yes. Could his range be weighted towards flush draws? Yes. Is "a feeling" enough to base your plan on? Doubtful.

My personal experience is that you won't be too wrong if you assume this is a set from an unknown player, so this becomes a matter of whether you know enough about this player to consider him a known rather than unknown.
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Old 04-19-2018, 05:10 PM   #10
chalupa
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irungoodpre View Post
Flop is KsTd7d pot=$90
2 checks, goof next to me leads for $12, he's mostly just having fun and his bet means very little.
Goof him back and raise to a nice $25 green chip.

Reopening the action even a little puts significant pressure on the other 2 players to (a) fold their weak flush draws and (b) raise their big hands.

So now when (b) check raise happens you retain position and reasonable SPR.

---

Best case (which happens quite a bit) is the first 2 players are like wtf/fold and then goofer can't resist another $13 and calls OOP and then you bop him at the turn, or bink and value town him.

Last edited by chalupa; 04-19-2018 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:59 AM   #11
paratrooper99
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

I wouldn't fold here. The best option IMO is to jam and run it twice. You can run it twice in the 2/2 game in Columbus and most players will for 100bb or more.
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:36 AM   #12
PixieRust
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

flatting the first bet would have been fine, but raising is standard.

Just call, you're IP. At worst you can just fold all non straight turns and top pair pairing turns, and get in everything else.

Quote:
I wouldn't fold here. The best option IMO is to jam and run it twice. You can run it twice in the 2/2 game in Columbus and most players will for 100bb or more.
What.
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:35 AM   #13
borg23
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
I wouldn't fold here. The best option IMO is to jam and run it twice. You can run it twice in the 2/2 game in Columbus and most players will for 100bb or more.
lol
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:30 PM   #14
BDHarrison
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Re: Flop Line facing check raise live 2/2/5 PLO

I never run it twice. Running it twice should be irrelevant to you decision.
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