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Old 09-03-2020, 05:41 PM   #1
Smudger2408
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Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

Typical example, I have 88-7-5 (suits), or some type of hand of decent connected hand. Gets raised, 3 bet. Comes to me on button or the blinds.

I understand that button vs. blind answer is different and interested on views of that wrinkle as well.

Assume All players at least 150 BB's deep. Been folding this alot, not because I don't think I have equity against two players, but I'm worried about the original raiser blasting off aces, or some other type hand Seem to be having some trouble here.

Sorry if this is too simplistic a question.
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Old 09-03-2020, 06:53 PM   #2
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

it would be helpful if you posted a complete hand history, but in general not closing the action does hurt your chances a bit, especially with a tight flatter. if the third guy is extremely loose passive then it helps, because he is going to be peeling the three bet with a lot of junk and you will do better in a three way pot generally then you would heads up. often, if you have like a strong run down, you go from a dog to breaking even.
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Old 09-03-2020, 08:39 PM   #3
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

Not clear at all - post some of the hands you folded with relevant action and we can assess whether your pre-flop strategy is correct.
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Old 09-03-2020, 09:46 PM   #4
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

1-2 6 handed all stacks $300.

8-8-7-5 double suited on button.

UTG goes to $7. Next player goes to $24.

Is this a clear fold?

Now move the hand to big blind and assume first raise cutoff, second button. Is it a clear fold?

And, if this is a fold, what is 3 bet flatting range? Should I be flatting much against 3 bets, or is it 4 bet or fold? I have constructed a good range when I am opener and flat the 3bettor, closing the action vs. 4 betting or folding.

Last edited by Smudger2408; 09-03-2020 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 09-03-2020, 11:37 PM   #5
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

So if he is 100% or 90% or whatever going to 4B to 96 then part of your consideration should be how often the 3Bettor will call or jam and if it would include cards that cover yours.

Because an option to think about would be that you can run it three ways for 150BB each then, so I’d be curious to see what the odds are versus say AAxx and QQJ10 or whatever hands. How close to 33% would you be? I think quite on it or above versus a lot of typical hands from players that would do that, including AKQJ type hands too.

If he is going to fold then you’d be faced with a call of 72 to win 300 and wouldn’t have the right price to set or flush draw mine? Or would you? I could use some help there if anyone knows the math and chances of having dominated flush draws. My gut is you would need to fold.

I think it gets interesting when the original player knows his 4B is going to be highly profitable and look like certain AA and becomes capable of 4betting rundowns with the intention of downbet bluffing paired flops or some other lockdown boards like QJT
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Old 09-03-2020, 11:38 PM   #6
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

In spots where you are facing a 3! And not closing the action you will should mostly be raising or folding - at some stack depths we might have a small flatting range

8875ds is a pretty easy fold both times - medium pairs with medium connectivity don't peform well HU or in mw pots.
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Old 09-04-2020, 02:23 AM   #7
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

oh i thought you were talking about when you were already in for one bet. when it is two bets cold you need a monster to play.
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Old 09-04-2020, 02:39 PM   #8
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

Thanks for the responses guys.


I think I'll stick to 4 bet or dump in these situations till I gain some more experience at higher levels.

Obviously, there are a lot of wide openers who are unlikely to four bet, the question assumed in a vaccum, so follow up question:

if it is a wide opener who is unlikely to 4 bet, do we flat with these types of hands in position, or still just better to wait for premium?

PA PokerStars only offers 6 handed PLO. So, all my question relate to 6 handed. I have found the 2.50-5 and 5-10 games are often softer than lower stakes due to presence of whales in these games, or guys on big time tilt.
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Old 09-04-2020, 06:52 PM   #9
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

You should definitely have a cold flat range both in position and out, balanced mostly with hands you're willing to get it in with, including some of your weak aces. What that range comprises depends entirely on the tendencies if those opening ahead of you. Having said all that, 8875ds is rarely in that range for me unless we're very deep and/or one of the guys already in the pot is a fish.
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Old 09-04-2020, 08:55 PM   #10
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

imo, your CC range BTN vs UTG open and MP 3b should virtually be 0. there are some hands i suppose flatting could make sense, i.e ds 2p hands and lower ds rundowns and the occasional AAxx. i think you can throw away all hands that contain mid pairs. 8875 is an easy fold. also as you move past BTN to SB or BB, you also lose position, so i would imagine your CC range is even smaller. to simplify i'd have more of a 4b or fold strategy unless you have some solid exploits on villains.

i believe this is theoretically true for BB vs CO open and BTN 3b.

hope this is semi helpful
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Old 09-05-2020, 12:02 AM   #11
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

Quote:
and the occasional AAxx.
would that be when we are like 150 or 200 + deep you are talking about? cause i think on 100 bb stacks we can cold four any aces, except maybe something really ugly like AAAx unsuited
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Old 09-05-2020, 12:11 PM   #12
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
would that be when we are like 150 or 200 + deep you are talking about? cause i think on 100 bb stacks we can cold four any aces, except maybe something really ugly like AAAx unsuited
yes, sorry i'm talking about 100bbs. but yeah i agree cold 4betting AAxx is always better. it seems AAAx rainbow is a fold and AAAx with a suit is always a 4b. my preflop sim says AAxx rainbow can CC sometimes but never at 100% frequency so i would honestly just put it all into a cold 4bet range.

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Old 09-05-2020, 04:56 PM   #13
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

Thanks for the replies.

Seems interesting view points on 3 betting flatting range. Most of replies say it contains bad aces.

What other hands could we consider in a 3 bet calling range?
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Old 09-05-2020, 05:04 PM   #14
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

Its not clear if some posters are advocating trapping with strong hands that would normally be 4!

At 150bb on btn we can flat some hands, mostly ds rundowns and double pairs. We do flat some aaxx, akk, aqq. But as a rule we are only flatting our worse aces, no nut flush draws, often rainbow both to trap and because of poor playability in bloated pots. But we strongly prefer raising most aces.

Last edited by monikrazy; 09-05-2020 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 09-05-2020, 05:26 PM   #15
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

I think its fine to fold our really bad aces ex AA27r, AA38r 150bb+ deep to a raise, 3bet, cold calling seems unprofitable
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Old 09-05-2020, 06:44 PM   #16
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

So, no one really addressed the following question:

The first better opens a ton of hands and is unlikely to 4 bet. This is often a dynamic.

In that situation, where we close the preflop action 95% of the time, what is our flatting range?
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Old 09-05-2020, 07:15 PM   #17
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

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Originally Posted by Joe-exotic69 View Post
I think its fine to fold our really bad aces ex AA27r, AA38r 150bb+ deep to a raise, 3bet, cold calling seems unprofitable
Correct, just didn't break down the trashy aaxx we should fold.
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Old 09-05-2020, 07:17 PM   #18
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

I can conceive of folding some trashy rainbow AAxx otb 150bb deep against certain tight openers and tight 3bettors, but my default is not to fold, either 4betting or flatting because my range for doing so is significantly wider than just AAxx. If my opponents are so tight that I think AA38r is a fold, we should be able to generate tons of profit by cold-4betting a reasonable range of hands that flop very well, including Axxx. If I'm in doubt about whether they 3b or get it in light, then I'll move a bunch of those hands into the cold-flatting range. But finding reasons to fold AAxx preflop in position is not a money spinner.
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Old 09-05-2020, 07:20 PM   #19
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

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Originally Posted by Smudger2408 View Post
So, no one really addressed the following question:

The first better opens a ton of hands and is unlikely to 4 bet. This is often a dynamic.

In that situation, where we close the preflop action 95% of the time, what is our flatting range?
Doesn't make a huge difference, the adjustment would be 4! Slightly wider, flatting about the same number of hands.

You can play up to about 5% of your range at most, and flat like 20- 40% of that 5% - even if preflop opener is fishy we still need to be disciplined with potential for blinds and fishy player to squeeze.
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Old 09-05-2020, 07:25 PM   #20
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Re: Flatting a 3 Bet when you don't close the action

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Originally Posted by wazz View Post
I can conceive of folding some trashy rainbow AAxx otb 150bb deep against certain tight openers and tight 3bettors, but my default is not to fold, either 4betting or flatting because my range for doing so is significantly wider than just AAxx. If my opponents are so tight that I think AA38r is a fold, we should be able to generate tons of profit by cold-4betting a reasonable range of hands that flop very well, including Axxx. If I'm in doubt about whether they 3b or get it in light, then I'll move a bunch of those hands into the cold-flatting range. But finding reasons to fold AAxx preflop in position is not a money spinner.
I checked some solver ranges and in this exact spot it folds something like 1% of aaxx, 25% of aaax. Most of the aaxx that fold are aaax rainbow.

Last edited by monikrazy; 09-05-2020 at 07:31 PM.
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