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Old 02-11-2014, 05:52 AM   #1
cbt
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Discussion about " Petition: Zoom Stacks Overhaul"

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Originally Posted by TheBabyGrand View Post
Zoom is open season for 40BB stacks to hit and run all day long.
It's 50bb min.

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Originally Posted by TheBabyGrand View Post
Poker is not meant for preflop hand selection niches to make money and kill action.
What has short-/halfstacking to do with preflop selection?
You have half of my vpip & pfr btw.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:05 AM   #2
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Re: Petition: Zoom stacks overhaul

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What has short-/halfstacking to do with preflop selection?
Are you ****ing serious?

If you really wanna have this debate, wrong thread
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:53 AM   #3
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Lol not this **** again.

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Old 02-11-2014, 01:02 PM   #4
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Re: Petition: Zoom stacks overhaul

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Originally Posted by GoGetaRealJob View Post
Are you ****ing serious?

If you really wanna have this debate, wrong thread
Don't think it should be a problem to point something out that seems wrong to me.

The thread with an actual debate has to be created first, otherwise I'll gladly ship you $20 for every link you or someone else can show me .
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:26 PM   #5
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Re: Petition: Zoom stacks overhaul

it definitely is a problem when someone like jeans who has probably won more money and is probably one of the best players in the world ratholes the 25/50 zoom all day. I am not blaming him as it is the proper strategy but it definitely will make the game similar to 40bb cap as the prisoner dilemma works itself out.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:51 PM   #6
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I don't understand why great players like Ben and jeans are so content to play short , their biggest edges are post when they put villains in tough spots when they are deep , but I guess when everyone else is short they might as well be too

And mikki is by far the biggest ratholer
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:23 PM   #7
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Re: Petition: Zoom stacks overhaul

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Originally Posted by cbt View Post
It's 50bb min.



What has short-/halfstacking to do with preflop selection?

Sorry, 50BB min.

But I don't really understand your point. Short and halfstacking has almost everything to do with preflop hand selection and vpip/ pfr niches. Hence, I wouldn't have a clue what either of your vpip or pfr are because I play poker. If you shortstack, you are trying to gain an edge based on someone's preflop tendencies. And those kinds of players are long term poison for any game. Like Kyle said, in the end it all turns into the prisoner's dilemma.

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You have half of my vpip & pfr btw.
I have zero clue what point this makes. Congrats is in order?
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:05 PM   #8
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Yeah, him presenting evidence doesn't say anything, yet anything you say about shortstackers is the absolute truth.

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Old 02-11-2014, 03:42 PM   #9
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Re: Petition: Zoom stacks overhaul

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Originally Posted by StarsRegProblems View Post
I don't understand why great players like Ben and jeans are so content to play short , their biggest edges are post when they put villains in tough spots when they are deep , but I guess when everyone else is short they might as well be too

And mikki is by far the biggest ratholer
If there were maybe 1 player per table that was < 50bb and the rest 80bb+, deep post-flop edges might be > the edges given up to the shortstack.. but once the average table has 2+ shorties, pre-flop stuff becomes far more relevant.. At least that's where I'd set the threshold -ish intuitively..
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:08 PM   #10
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Re: Petition: Zoom stacks overhaul

There are several solutions available, but many take a group effort, I'll list two but of course there are many more.

Example 1, boycott the PLO Zoom-only games for awhile (play lower stakes or another site). There is a reason that NLH $25/50 didn't go Zoom-only, while PLO $25/50 did. Last month the $50/100 NLH Zoom-only action was so dead that NLH did NOT get the expansion to $25/50 Zoom-only...Inactivity gets noticed by Stars and it gets noticed fast. If no one plays the Zoom-only PLO for rest of month while demanding some fixes to Zoom then we are in better shape to get those fixes and fast.

Example 2, if the idea of not playing any Zoom at all for the rest of month (less than 3 weeks) is beyond your will power or you are against that course of action, start the damn deep ante pool. The pools start and populate in a very organized manner. It takes two people sitting for awhile before a third and fourth sit. Then momentum builds and it is six people and then ten people soon after. Get all of that momentum building in the Zoom deep ante pool by only sitting there and deny it to the Zoom regular pool by refusing to sit in it.

Seriously, the game plan is rather simple. And the fact that $50/100 NLH Zoom-only was dead last month and ended up with a different result for $25/50 NLH than $25/50 PLO shows that NOT playing can affect the results. This is the modern day boycott not some table blocking sit out boycottt where they can boot you and temp ban you. Take a break from PLO Zoom-only for rest of February until fixes are implemented and I bet those fixes come fast. You can complain for months like the people wanting a rat hole solution, these people are getting circle jerked by Stars going on years now. Or you can hard core boycott certain games/stakes and get results fast. The fact that $25/50 NLH didn't go Zoom-only this month proves that activity or lack of activity gets noticed and responded to by Stars.

signed

Last edited by moonship; 02-11-2014 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:23 PM   #11
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Re: Petition: Zoom stacks overhaul

i vote for remove all zoome on all stakes
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:44 PM   #12
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Re: Petition: Zoom stacks overhaul

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i vote for remove all zoome on all stakes
you are one of the biggest pieces that plays hs plo online


you can't sit out all day with zoom and still get position on fish OMG NO
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:21 PM   #13
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Re: Petition: Zoom stacks overhaul

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Originally Posted by StarsRegProblems View Post
I don't understand why great players like Ben and jeans are so content to play short , their biggest edges are post when they put villains in tough spots when they are deep , but I guess when everyone else is short they might as well be too
Just PMed this duo for comments
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:33 PM   #14
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Re: Petition: Zoom stacks overhaul

.
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Old 02-12-2014, 04:33 AM   #15
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Re: Discussion about " Petition: Zoom Stacks Overhaul"

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Originally Posted by StarsRegProblems View Post
I don't understand why great players like Ben and jeans are so content to play short , their biggest edges are post when they put villains in tough spots when they are deep , but I guess when everyone else is short they might as well be too

And mikki is by far the biggest ratholer
it's not a surprise that you don't understand

also attempting to muddy anyones name in any way while they're doing something completely within their rights just because you don't like it is really **** thing to do anonymous internet poster
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:35 AM   #16
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Re: Petition: Zoom stacks overhaul

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you are one of the biggest pieces that plays hs plo online


you can't sit out all day with zoom and still get position on fish OMG NO
Zoom is definitely the answer to a lot of the scummy tricks out there. It is sad that playing poker on Pokerstars has turned into the best script writing and software reading nowadays. I just want to play poker. I want to play 3 streets of big pots with all types of opponents. But there are still tons of kinks in zoom. 3 times yesterday I took a small break and lost all of my stack sizes. And the time bank is also a huge issue.
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:56 AM   #17
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Re: Discussion about " Petition: Zoom Stacks Overhaul"

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Originally Posted by cbt View Post
It's 50bb min.
Its 40bb min in the Zoom polls most discussed in this forum (25 50 and 50 100).

Petition to have PokerStars return Zoom PLO 25/50 and 50/100 to 50bb minimum thread
is existing for the sole reason to get it back to 50..
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:15 AM   #18
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Re: Discussion about " Petition: Zoom Stacks Overhaul"

I'm aware ofc.
He didn't state which stakes but plays somewhere around 100 & 400 himself afaik,
hence it's easy to assume he wasn't talking about 5k & 10k.

Could have been a mistake/typo or simply him not playing much zoom, anyways not very important .


Btw I think it's kinda lol when 2card players & co sign the other thread, but that's just me.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:47 PM   #19
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Re: Discussion about " Petition: Zoom Stacks Overhaul"

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Originally Posted by StarsRegProblems View Post
I don't understand why great players like Ben and jeans are so content to play short , their biggest edges are post when they put villains in tough spots when they are deep , but I guess when everyone else is short they might as well be too

And mikki is by far the biggest ratholer
As already said in this thread, the problem with playing zoom deepstacked as it currently runs is that there are so many shortstacks. I don't see this as a problem as it looks like that is what most recreational players at the moment want to play. In todays games there are so many tough regs compared to the amount of fish that the edges are really small to begin with and playing deepstacked when there are an average of 2-3 shortstacks per table I think it will be very hard to even maintain a positive winrate. So if you can't beat em join em

I also couldn't disagree more with the statement that shallow plo is all about preflop hand selection. With the small opening sizes you are constantly playing garbage from the big blind with great pot odds and get into a lot of very tricky situations. I consider myself competent with any stacksize, but players that are only comfortable playing deepstacked are going to have to adapt.

I'm not sure exactly where the threshold is for some of the recreational players, 50bb is probably fine for them aswell, but prolly close to the upper limit.

edit: this years games, mostly zoom (doesn't include the 70k I lost a few days ago at 100/200): https://twitter.com/RealJeans89/stat...810816/photo/1
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:34 PM   #20
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Re: Discussion about " Petition: Zoom Stacks Overhaul"

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I also couldn't disagree more with the statement that shallow plo is all about preflop hand selection. With the small opening sizes you are constantly playing garbage from the big blind with great pot odds and get into a lot of very tricky situations. I consider myself competent with any stacksize, but players that are only comfortable playing deepstacked are going to have to adapt.
This is not an argument for what skill level is required for playing each different type of poker. This is a what is best for the game discussion by promoting the most action and bringing the most recreational players to the game. Professional players that rathole are poison for action. There is no way to make another argument. Their action will not entice other players to play. Not good ones or bad ones. Ever. Yes, recreational players might buy in for 50BBs. But the ability of them to rathole will not keep them in the game. It is that 25% of the pool that is using calculation software, ratholing techniques, and plaguing games that I am worried about.
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:47 PM   #21
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Re: Discussion about " Petition: Zoom Stacks Overhaul"

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Originally Posted by TheBabyGrand View Post
This is not an argument for what skill level is required for playing each different type of poker. This is a what is best for the game discussion by promoting the most action and bringing the most recreational players to the game. Professional players that rathole are poison for action. There is no way to make another argument. Their action will not entice other players to play. Not good ones or bad ones. Ever. Yes, recreational players might buy in for 50BBs. But the ability of them to rathole will not keep them in the game. It is that 25% of the pool that is using calculation software, ratholing techniques, and plaguing games that I am worried about.
The original suggestion from Pokerstars, they said they will implement, will get rid of professional ratholing, while allowing rec's to do it without noticing much. Basically y ratholes allowed for every 18hour period or something.

Ratholers are very good at hidding behind the undocumented 'wishes' from the fishes, while Pokerstars actually made a system that was both giving the fishes what they wanted, without having a system people could leech and exploit trough ratholing.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:01 PM   #22
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Re: Discussion about " Petition: Zoom Stacks Overhaul"

I do agree that ratholing is an issue, however I'm not sure how to fix it. It used to be that a fish who didn't want to play deep could just open a new table with the min buy-in and everyone would join that one. Now it drives the average stack depth way under 40bb if the pros keep rejoining with a new stack once they win a pot. If there is some solution that will keep the pros from doing it while allowing the fish it I'm all for it.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:02 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeans View Post
As already said in this thread, the problem with playing zoom deepstacked as it currently runs is that there are so many shortstacks. I don't see this as a problem as it looks like that is what most recreational players at the moment want to play. In todays games there are so many tough regs compared to the amount of fish that the edges are really small to begin with and playing deepstacked when there are an average of 2-3 shortstacks per table I think it will be very hard to even maintain a positive winrate. So if you can't beat em join em

I also couldn't disagree more with the statement that shallow plo is all about preflop hand selection. With the small opening sizes you are constantly playing garbage from the big blind with great pot odds and get into a lot of very tricky situations. I consider myself competent with any stacksize, but players that are only comfortable playing deepstacked are going to have to adapt.

I'm not sure exactly where the threshold is for some of the recreational players, 50bb is probably fine for them aswell, but prolly close to the upper limit.

edit: this years games, mostly zoom (doesn't include the 70k I lost a few days ago at 100/200): https://twitter.com/RealJeans89/stat...810816/photo/1
Thanks for chiming in. Its something that i have been thinking about for a while, even before the zoom only change. I understand the can't beat them so join them argument

There is very, very, few people that buy in or table start with a full 100bb , most regs are fine buying in for 40bb and running it up from there, which is fine I guess , but it seems the trend is going towards shallow stack plo and I'm not sure if that is good thing for the future

Will stars introduce CAP games for short stackers? Games that will lead to permanent short stacked play, and regs losing their minds over rake and affecting their win rate?

Tons of speculation and stuff can be made, but at the end of the day, I guess it just boils down to adjusting as best you can to the current state of the games, and that seems to be what everyone is doing .
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Old 02-12-2014, 04:16 PM   #24
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Re: Discussion about " Petition: Zoom Stacks Overhaul"

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Originally Posted by StarsRegProblems View Post
Tons of speculation and stuff can be made, but at the end of the day, I guess it just boils down to adjusting as best you can to the current state of the games, and that seems to be what everyone is doing .
Except people on 2p2 who are only complaining.
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Old 02-12-2014, 04:18 PM   #25
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Re: Discussion about " Petition: Zoom Stacks Overhaul"

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Originally Posted by Jeans View Post
I also couldn't disagree more with the statement that shallow plo is all about preflop hand selection.[/URL]
woops, maybe ggarj & blopp believe it now.

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Originally Posted by TheBabyGrand View Post
This is not an argument for what skill level is required for playing each different type of poker.
If you listen to some, all you have to do is sit down, buy in for the min. and start milking e.g:
Quote:
Originally Posted by blopp View Post
...without having a system people could leech and exploit trough ratholing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBabyGrand View Post
Their action will not entice other players to play.
I don't think they give much of a ****, rake is a much greater problem and they don't care either with their low vip level accounts.
I can count the times I got berated by a fish/rec for playing short on the fingers of one hand, for ignorant regs i'd need a few more hands.

Last edited by cbt; 02-12-2014 at 04:24 PM.
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