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Old 11-13-2017, 01:38 PM   #1
Jamitontheriver
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Deep and OOP

Game in a casino, 5/5 with $10 MS, open to $50 allowed

Hero: ($6k) regular in casino, regularly play the highest stakes in hold em and has been playing plo regularly for about six months.

V1: ($320) rec player, has lost many buy ins

V2: ($1500) rec player, pretty tight, loves limp/three betting

V3: (covers all): one of the best hold em players in the area, has been playing plo for a couple months

Sb folds, hero in bb opens $50 A4ddA6, V1 and V2 flat from EP, V3 from HJ makes it $250 to go.

Is this a spot that I should be four betting or flatting?

A four bet would be to $850, which if V3 flats would create a pot of $1800 with $5k stacks behind.
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Old 11-13-2017, 01:50 PM   #2
Javanewt
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Re: Deep and OOP

How often does V3 3bet (or is it 4bet with straddle?)? What's his range? I probably just flat, but I'm not thrilled with so-so AA hands and would not want to gii pre, so can't really stand a 5bet by V3. Could be totally wrong, though. I'm tight.
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Old 11-13-2017, 02:21 PM   #3
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Re: Deep and OOP

This is an interesting spot and I think there is merit to 4 betting and flatting. If you flat, you will be going 4 ways to the flop. If you 4-bet, your hand basically gets turned Face Up, but you'll probably go heads up to the flop, or at worst 3 handed with V1. I think a lot of this depends on how well you are able to play your Aces' post flop and how well you are able to play against Villain's range.

I think if you put me in this spot, I'm probably 4-betting about 60-65% of the time and flatting 35-40% of the time.
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Old 11-13-2017, 02:27 PM   #4
Jamitontheriver
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Re: Deep and OOP

Re: V3’s range it is somewhat wide and includes double suited rundowns, double suites hands with two or more broadways and probably occasionally some single suited aces with good connectivity. I can’t imagine him ever folding any of that range to a four bet, but I think he only five bets AA
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Old 11-13-2017, 07:05 PM   #5
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Re: Deep and OOP

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
How often does V3 3bet (or is it 4bet with straddle?)? What's his range? I probably just flat, but I'm not thrilled with so-so AA hands and would not want to gii pre, so can't really stand a 5bet by V3. Could be totally wrong, though. I'm tight.
I'm probably tighter than you because I strongly consider just calling in the BB instead of opening to $50 so that I can avoid being in this spot.

I dislike playing AAxx OOP vs good players in big pots when I expect them to think I have AAxx. I have some non-AA hands in my 4bet range, but I want to cap the percentage of my 4bet range that is AAxx. My problem is that my opponents tend to think I always have AAxx, so I often feel like I don't want to have AA unless my side cards are strong enough to give me other ways to win.

I would be evaluating the probability that V2 pots it if I flat in this spot. Would he do so with KKxx ds?
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Old 11-13-2017, 07:09 PM   #6
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Re: Deep and OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
How often does V3 3bet (or is it 4bet with straddle?)? What's his range? I probably just flat, but I'm not thrilled with so-so AA hands and would not want to gii pre, so can't really stand a 5bet by V3. Could be totally wrong, though. I'm tight.
what

easy 4bet.
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Old 11-13-2017, 07:11 PM   #7
Jamitontheriver
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Re: Deep and OOP

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I'm probably tighter than you because I strongly consider just calling in the BB instead of opening to $50 so that I can avoid being in this spot.

I dislike playing AAxx OOP vs good players in big pots when I expect them to think I have AAxx. I have some non-AA hands in my 4bet range, but I want to cap the percentage of my 4bet range that is AAxx. My problem is that my opponents tend to think I always have AAxx, so I often feel like I don't want to have AA unless my side cards are strong enough to give me other ways to win.

I would be evaluating the probability that V2 pots it if I flat in this spot. Would he do so with KKxx ds?
I can understand why you want to play smaller pots OOP, but the table is very passive with the exception of V3 and I want to take advantage of that by building pots with hands that can cooler people, or get a short stack all in. I think AA with one suit has to be in my bb raising range at that table or I'm never raising. I could consider a flat with aces with no suit.

I think it is unlikely that V2 will stick it in here without AA. The only hands I saw him raise all night were AAxx.
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Old 11-13-2017, 07:13 PM   #8
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Re: Deep and OOP

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Originally Posted by sauhund View Post
what

easy 4bet.
I think this is what I'm leaning towards, but the follow up question is how do we continue on the flop? Are we committing to every board that isn't extremely connected? I assume we are committing to boards like 10-5-2r but what about boards like Q95ss? Check folding? Check calling? I'm having trouble developing a plan for the flop.
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Old 11-13-2017, 07:24 PM   #9
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Re: Deep and OOP

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I can understand why you want to play smaller pots OOP, but the table is very passive with the exception of V3 and I want to take advantage of that by building pots with hands that can cooler people, or get a short stack all in. I think AA with one suit has to be in my bb raising range at that table or I'm never raising. I could consider a flat with aces with no suit.

I think it is unlikely that V2 will stick it in here without AA. The only hands I saw him raise all night were AAxx.
I have a very tight table image and it is hard to get a short stack to 3bet me to try to get it in unless they have AA, but I also understand how table image works and believe that people with a less nitty image should raise with your hand more often than I should.

At some tables, almost no one 3bets, but many players can't stand limped pots. When I raise pre, I usually don't get 3bet, but I get callers. When I don't raise pre, someone else raises and gets callers and I have the option to limp-reraise, although I still might just call a single raise with this sort of hand OOP. So, limping gives me an information advantage.

So, one thing I would consider in playing this hand preflop is whether V1 is the sort of player who will raise light to build a pot so that he can try to get back to even.
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:10 AM   #10
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Re: Deep and OOP

Raise, consider a smaller-than pot sizing if v2 is likely to just ship his 1.5k stack in and re-open the bidding

If you flat you put yourself in a position where the shorter stacks make post-flop less profitable for you
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:33 AM   #11
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Re: Deep and OOP

there's about 99% chance that short stack will stick it in regardless so this is a good spot to 4-bet, since villain shouldn't get out of line too much postflop on tough boards with protected main pot
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:20 AM   #12
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Re: Deep and OOP

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Raise, consider a smaller-than pot sizing if v2 is likely to just ship his 1.5k stack in and re-open the bidding
OP said V2 likely isn't shipping it without AA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha Fish View Post
there's about 99% chance that short stack will stick it in regardless so this is a good spot to 4-bet, since villain shouldn't get out of line too much postflop on tough boards with protected main pot
A pot-sized 4bet creates a sizable side pot which V3 might find worth stealing since he profits by winning it uncontested on the flop even if he loses the main pot. You probably deny more of his fold equity by just flatting pre.

I've been thinking about the value of opening for less than the max when there are shorter stacks at the table in order to set up spots where they can just go "F it, all in" after flatting the initial raise and getting 3bet. I think I am better than my usual opponents at detecting when something like this will happen and folding playable hands to the first raise that can't stand getting squeezed.
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:54 AM   #13
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Re: Deep and OOP

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Originally Posted by Jamitontheriver View Post
I think this is what I'm leaning towards, but the follow up question is how do we continue on the flop? Are we committing to every board that isn't extremely connected? I assume we are committing to boards like 10-5-2r but what about boards like Q95ss? Check folding? Check calling? I'm having trouble developing a plan for the flop.
I see, that is indeed the problem, but what do you want, a plan for every possible flop?
you don´t know what happens if you 4bet. you don´t know how V1 and V2 react. you don´t know how V3 reacts. you don´t know the flop. you don´t know whether the world ends or not. You do know however, that you are pushing an equity edge preflop and are in a position that you can still bet/commit profitably to most boards.

Worry about the flop when it´s there.
and yeah, the only way to really get better, unfortunately, is not posting a hand here and hope for some flawed or not-flawed opinions from some unknowns who know or don´t know what they are talking about, unfortunately it requires a little bit of time and work. Go to propokertools.com or any other website you know for analyzing spots like that, type in your hand, villains range, and see how your equity is on different boards. this way, you´ll get better at identifying the spots where you profitably bet/gii, where you should c/fold, c/call, b/fold, etc
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:28 AM   #14
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Re: Deep and OOP

So, if you 4bet, are you prepared to gii against the other big stack? We are talking 600bb (with straddle).

Plus, we are OOP, which really stinks in this spot. There are actually very few flops that we love against V3's 4bet flatting range.

If there is a good chance V3 will fold to the 4bet (lol, this is PLO), have at it, but I'm flatting here.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:23 AM   #15
BDHarrison
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Re: Deep and OOP

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I see, that is indeed the problem, but what do you want, a plan for every possible flop?
you don´t know what happens if you 4bet. you don´t know how V1 and V2 react. you don´t know how V3 reacts. you don´t know the flop. you don´t know whether the world ends or not. You do know however, that you are pushing an equity edge preflop and are in a position that you can still bet/commit profitably to most boards.

Worry about the flop when it´s there.
and yeah, the only way to really get better, unfortunately, is not posting a hand here and hope for some flawed or not-flawed opinions from some unknowns who know or don´t know what they are talking about, unfortunately it requires a little bit of time and work. Go to propokertools.com or any other website you know for analyzing spots like that, type in your hand, villains range, and see how your equity is on different boards. this way, you´ll get better at identifying the spots where you profitably bet/gii, where you should c/fold, c/call, b/fold, etc
I just think this is bad advice. Your goal should be to be able to think beyond the current street. I come from the school of thought that PLO is mainly a post-flop game and your preflop hand selection is based on how well your hand will play after the flop and your understanding of your implied odds.

So, what might happen? Maybe V2 has aces and you get it in vs him with V3 tagging along with a good run down. Maybe V3 has aces and V2 has a solid hand. Maybe neither has aces but they do have top 20% hands. You are OOP, so you need a bigger equity edge preflop than you would need to push a hand in position if there is going to be significant action post-flop.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:29 AM   #16
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Re: Deep and OOP

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
So, if you 4bet, are you prepared to gii against the other big stack? We are talking 600bb (with straddle).

Plus, we are OOP, which really stinks in this spot. There are actually very few flops that we love against V3's 4bet flatting range.

If there is a good chance V3 will fold to the 4bet (lol, this is PLO), have at it, but I'm flatting here.

I tend to think that a pot-sized raise is better than a call because we get abused by the short-stack, I can give several scenarios without mentioning flop texture (the shorty is all in so the pot is 1.3k)

A. hero checks, v3 shoves, v4 flats

B. Hero checks, v3 shoves, v4 jams

C. Hero checks, v3 checks and v4 makes a smallish cbet (say 450 that would allow v4 to reopen the action if v3 raises)

I also think the information in the op that v3 might fold a decent amount of his range and that v4 is not the most experienced plo player make raising comparatively more attractive than it would be vs some opponents

I should note, that situations like this do open the door to some unusual raise sizes that can reduce some of these concerns - if hero raises to $450-600 v3 and v4 will have a harder time exploiting hero based on the stack imbalances.. the main problem with these atypical raise sizes is villains will probably be able to infer too much about your range unless you play a very aggro style or are a world-crusher

Both v3 and v4 may raise so hero should be very hesitant to pass up lines that may let him commit with decent aa this deep


Edit: these smaller raises also open the door to implicit collusion between you and v3 if he does have a rundown type hand as jamming will often be more +ev than flatting

Last edited by monikrazy; 11-14-2017 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:50 AM   #17
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Re: Deep and OOP

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Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
I just think this is bad advice. Your goal should be to be able to think beyond the current street. I come from the school of thought that PLO is mainly a post-flop game and your preflop hand selection is based on how well your hand will play after the flop and your understanding of your implied odds.

So, what might happen? Maybe V2 has aces and you get it in vs him with V3 tagging along with a good run down. Maybe V3 has aces and V2 has a solid hand. Maybe neither has aces but they do have top 20% hands. You are OOP, so you need a bigger equity edge preflop than you would need to push a hand in position if there is going to be significant action post-flop.
Well, I´m not suggesting anything else if you read it closely. I`d advise to OP to look at these spots from a mathematical point of view by using some free tool to see how his equity looks on different flops. nothing else really helps or prepares you for postflop play.

As for preflop, if we do have any 4bet range in this spot, this hand should be in it.

As for esoteric unquantifyable hippie-reasons, we reduce SPR, get value with the best hand on the street we are positive to have the best hand and create a postflop situation which is easier to navigate by mainly bet/calling the majority of flops compared to being oop with a hand that doesn´t flop all that well tbh and practically set or flushmine in a 3bet pot.


tbh, it is uncomfortable to 4bet here. we are very deep and are creating a situation where we might have to stack off somewhat light for 6k and creating this massive 12k pot in a 5/5 game. that´s a bit scary. It´s scary for him as well though, make no mistake...
4bet is the play here, and I think above is the real reason why people wouldn´t want to 4bet in spots like these.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:54 AM   #18
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Re: Deep and OOP

OK, there is not V4, so I assume you mean V3 is V2 and V4 is V3?

I am not worried about getting abused by V2 on the flop; it's V3 I'm worried about.

Back to pre: I see no information about V2? (I assume) folding, but he's tight and would have limp 3bet already if he had a hand for it. Therefore, I'm not worried about V2 opening the pot again after V3 3bets if we just flat.

However, V3 could easily 5bet here, which is what worries me and is my main question. If we 4bet and V3 5bets, do we gii? I see no point in flatting a 5bet, even 600bb deep. I think this is what we have to be thinking about right now.

I don't consider this a decent AA -- it is so-so. If we are against another AA, the other AA is likely much better.

We are OOP, which is a huge deal in PLO.

Last edited by Javanewt; 11-14-2017 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:00 PM   #19
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Re: Deep and OOP

Of course, if you guys are willing to gii for $6,000 pre w/ this AA hand, 4bet is the best play. You are never too far behind in this game
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:06 PM   #20
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Re: Deep and OOP

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post

V3 could easily 5bet here, which is what worries me and is my main question. If we 4bet and V3 5bets, do we gii? I see no point in flatting a 5bet, even 600bb deep. I think this is what we have to be thinking about right now.

I don't consider this a decent AA -- it is so-so. If we are against another AA, the other AA is likely much better.


That´s not a major concern at this point imo. Hero didn´t state at any point that villain is incredibly AA-heavy once he 3bets.
also:
ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
AdAc4d6s50.96% 135,373340,731
AA49.04% 123,896340,731

he´s probably not 3betting every AA combo either, but you get the point.


We are OOP, which is a huge deal in PLO.
That´s an argument for 4betting, right?
Also, I wanna add, don´t know why these are supposed to be weak aces. these are deluxe aces.
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:36 PM   #21
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Re: Deep and OOP

Single-suited A with low cards just don't seem deluxe to me. If you are against other AA that are willing to get it in pre for 600bb, the other AA is most likely much better. However, as noted, you are never too far behind.

I would just rather be in position for this hand if we are 4betting and getting called by a wide, strong range (or 5bet by most likely better). If V3 really is never 5betting with less than AA, 4bet and hope you are a really good OOP PLO player post flop.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:37 PM   #22
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Re: Deep and OOP

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Also, I wanna add, don´t know why these are supposed to be weak aces. these are deluxe aces.
Assume V3 doesn't 3bet weak aces. How does AA64ss do against that range of aces?
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:38 PM   #23
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Re: Deep and OOP

Yeah, those tricky top2% hands.......
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:25 PM   #24
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Re: Deep and OOP

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Assume V3 doesn't 3bet weak aces. How does AA64ss do against that range of aces?
can´t compete against that logic.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:20 PM   #25
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Re: Deep and OOP

Everyone saying that we would love not to be oop.But we are so whats the best move in this position.If someone think reraising aa oop this deep is bad,i m pretty sure that
calling and playing oop 4 or 5way is not too good either.
I think 1 option can be to flat so v1 rec player who has lost many buy ins can raise all in for his 320 and we can then repot.Other legitimate option is 4beting
if we think short stack wont shove.Spr just over 2.5 with big stack which is fine.
Not sure where s the point in thinking that he has premium aa so we re in bad shape.
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