Hey everyone,

I've started to dabble in 1/2-5/5 PLO and wanted to see if you all could help me with session reviews. I check this PLO forum often and don't really see much action, but if beginner questions are annoying just let me know and I'll find somewhere else to post.

I've played about 30 hours or so (I play NLHE full time) and I recently realized
1. I'm a level 1 thinking PLO player. I have no idea how to put someone on a range.
2. I have no idea how to begin thinking about the math aspects of this game.

I read Hwang's book Pot Limit Omaha and grasp the general strategy, but it seems my local game plays very loose and aggressive. I play unbelievably tight compared to others and essentially get laughed at. (This doesn't bother me in the least, just gives you perspective.)

So on to a HH: New must move table (the main game generally plays big and includes a $10 button straddle. It's 5/5 table stakes and usually only runs on the weekend. Main players always have $2k+ and match the known whales. Can be upwards of $10k stacks. This is why I like playing in the must move table or brand new table where buy ins are capped at $1k.) and I usually buy in for $300-600.

5 handed and main V is a regular/pro. $600 effective.

V is BB and one limper. I have AA8Q
I pot on the button to $25. V and limper call.

Flop ($75)
752

Checks to me and I bet $75. If you asked me why I bet, I'm not totally sure. I still probably have the best hand and 2 BDFD though this flop is much better for both V's range.

V check raises to $350. Limper ponders a call and says he will make a nit fold.

I look at my hand and I just have no idea what to put him on or what I should call or fold with. Any rules of thumb?

I think about it and decide to get it all in. If he flopped a set that's fine. If the limper had called I would've folded. I jam and he calls and the run out is 4 Q.

I table my hand and it's good. He doesn't show.

How do I begin to put him on anything to make a reasonable decision to fold or shove?

Marsh

It comes with experience. You will begin to get a feel for villains ranges, etc. as you play more and play with the same player pool.

If V is a pro and knows you play as tight as you say he is putting you on big cards and could be doing this with any open ended or wrap hand, any set, any two pair and any 1 pair where he knows you will probably fold and that he is live for any two pairs he may catch on the turn.

Playing as you did depends on your bankroll and risk tolerance as you are never a huge favorite against the range outlined above.

As played, would pot preflop and bet flop as you did. Against certain players I would fold after he reraises but a lot of that is based on villain and read. If I decide to play the hand after he raises I play as you did and raise rather than call.

Thanks. It’s hard because the ‘book’ says to play close to the nuts, but the regs/pros and fish all play very wide from what I can tell. Perhaps it’s a mixture of style and skill to know how to play that way.

And as for the math, how do you calculate your odds to call on a draw? Do you just go with how many cards make your hand and if you’re dominated somewhere so be it? Like if you have a wrap and picked up J high back door diamonds. Are diamonds part of your outs until the A high scoops and busts you?

I think your flop bet was way too big. 40 seems right to me though 3-way in a live game I check back a lot here. Not a great flop to try to rep a big hand.

Betting smaller does a lot of things for you. You’re trying to get Vs to fold 1 pair type hands that still have a lot of equity against your AA. Those hands fold to 40 basically the same as 75. When you get flattted (esp by just one V) you’re able to pot control turns that don’t give you any equity and decide whether to bluff catch on good runouts like paired boards. When you pot it, you head to turn with 225 in pot and 500 back. At that point you’ve negated some of your positional advantage compared to 155 in pot and 535 back

As played, after you’re raised flop is tough. He’s got sets, which prob have75- 80% equity on you, 2-pair which is a favorite but not huge, Combo draws which are prob coin flips (though you’re behind some good combo draws) and random 1 pair hands with backdoors and gutters which you’re ahead of but not by a ton. The real question is whether this guy is capable of recognizing that you’re tight, that this is a bad board for you, that you’re not going to want to get it in w AA and so he can make a play at you. If so I guess it’s a sigh shove, if he’s a standard PLO reg just showing down 2 pair+ and combo draws here then I fold.

If you’d bet smaller bet-fold is easier too. If he pots over your 40 on flop it’s an easy fold.

That book has good basic principles, but so much of PLO is player-dependent that something +EV for one villain is massively -EV vs another villain, and Visa versa. This is true to the extent that it makes sense to call down with top pair vs some villains and be good (see some of my previous posts), but to fold bottom set vs others.

I like what BullTexas said about ranges, and what MIB says about sizing. Potting this board makes no sense, since it misses a lot of your range. What can you legitimately rep on this board, and how could this range possibly hit you harder than your opponents?

The engineer in me hates all this ‘just play and figure it out’!

But part of my large bets/raises is the good players know I’m treading water and I have a propensity to fold as a default. I have a good bankroll (for NLHE) but I’m not gambly by nature. So the more I push back with good ranges the more I think they’ll stop trying to bluff at every possibility.

I assume since I won this particular hand and the straight got there he had
KKxx.

Thanks for the input and I’ll keep posting hands as try come about.

Marsh

stacking off with this holding in a single raised pot is ******ed

I sort of hoped the ‘beginner’ verbiage and ‘I don’t know what I’m doing yet’ could’ve avoided posts like this. But either way, noted.

I'd maybe believe a hand like 789T or something, especially if they have backdoors and think you're scared money. The point at which you shove, V is calling $250 into $975, so they should call with basically anything they've gotten to this point with. So I mean, even A985 could theoretically be possible, but yeah, 4 on the turn shouldn't have been a good card for you.

I think one big concept that frequently applies in spots like this in Omaha is that your equity will drastically change from street to street, so you're going to want to take a lot of free cards in position with a good but not great hand.

Others also pointed out that your tight range has you face up in spots like this -- you could have AA77, but otherwise your whole game knows you won't have top set. Tough to play a big pot when they know you're capped. I'd say it would be good if you're also raising small rundowns preflop, like 5678 here, just so you can actually have something on this board.

Yeah I know I appear faceup, but by tight I mean all 4 cards have to work together and I rarely set mine with 7744 or something. So at the bottom of my call range is rundowns like 8765 or a suited A654 or 7765. However my preflop raise hands are generally big, double suited Broadway cards and always from late position. So in that sense my hands are faceup until I open my raise range and and show down something different than suited AA.

Well and the upside for you is it doesn't seem to stop them from taking shots at you, so if you're willing to ride the variance train, you can certainly keep going like you are and it'll probably be profitable for you. One thought is that if you're playing that tight, you should maybe tend to limp more to enable you to LRR to a size that lets you shove for one bet on the flop -- if your opponents get to play preflop for $25 with $575 behind it's a lot different than if they're playing for $125 with $475 behind. The former should be a lot easier to exploit you for a good player.

One thought for you on being new to this -- try to open your range on the button -- position is an even bigger deal in Omaha than in NLHE. Should be helpful for you in terms of metagame, learning about spots, and occasionally having a deceptive nutted hand.

Op this is the best post in the thread.

That's fine, but I'm looking for more. So the better way to play the hand is check behind flop and let the straight get there, but I pick up nut diamond draw. So then V1 would probably check and V2 would pot since he had a wrap and would've turned a straight. So now I have a nut flush draw and am getting 2:1 (not enough to call) and fold. And just to reiterate we are 5 handed here.

I've played about 25 hours of PLO and the regs know I will fold without tons of equity so they me raise super light. I don't mind check folding this hand if you're telling me it's the right thing to do, but I've been blown off way better hands than this and need to find spots to see through to the river.

I guess I don't know when we charge for draws or check behind for free cards and reevaluate. Of if that is even how we are supposed to think about it.

I really am here to learn so I apologize if this is above everyone. This forum gets no posts so I figured people wouldn't care if a n00b asked some questions.

Well, so you have a NFD and an overpair, so I'd probably call the turn here and evaluate the river. Probably calling some/folding some (having not made the flush draw). Keep in mind if your opponent pots the river blind you actually have odds to just the NFD -- you're getting 5:1 instead of 2:1, and it seems like your opponents tend to barrel off on you when you show any weakness?

The other thing about having a wider range/being uncapped is that if they have to respect you for occasionally having the nuts on say, a paired board, or if another straightening card comes off, your overpair is likelier to win a small pot at showdown.

Basically in this spot, around half the deck changes the nuts on the river, and 9/22 of those you have, the rest you don't -- and it should be apparent to your opponents that you can't, basically. Ordinarily the "flow" in a lot of Omaha games involves the OOP player checking if the nuts (or practical nuts) changes -- but if they don't have to respect you for potentially having it, they can barrel off more securely with both 789T as a bluff and 6789 as the practical nuts.

what happened to the rest of the cards

So there's 44 cards remaining going to the river, we can see four on the board and four in our hand...

Of the 44, 9 are diamonds, 10 are board pairs, but 2 are shared between both of those qualities. So 17 flush/boat cards, two of which do both.

There's also 3 6s and 3 8s that are not of our suit, but we're holding one of them, so there's 5 of those remaining. So 5 cards that improve the straight on the board.

So, 22/44 cards change the nuts. Nine give us our flush. So that's where I got 9/22.

Edit: Just realized we have the 8d, so there's actually 23 cards that change the nuts.

Grunching this. When low cards come on the flop, sets become less likely because people play less 77,55,22 hands than high cards. Similarly, the flop is fairly connected but the combinations that give us wraps + draws are less likely. 86, 64, 43, A[5-2]. These factors make me want to bet our aces for value and for less than pot. I would be betting $40 here. This makes it easier to call a big raise.

V can probably read board texture and realizes you'll have few hands you want to bet full pot on this board. It's a good spot to raise and put you to a difficult decision. Generally I would not be calling or jamming here without a read that this player is bluffing more than average. With AA, you want an SPR around 3 or less to feel comfortable stacking off without a read.

I'm surprised that your hand was good on this runout. I guess KK?