Hero in this hand is a friend of mine. It’s 5-10 mix of spread limit (can bet or raise between 10 and 600 at any point). The mix is 5 card double board, big O, and omaha. Both villains have around 2K and are unknown YWGs.

Hero in sb with AdQdJd9c3h, 7 handed

Pre: V1 (UTG) calls, V2 (LJ) calls, btn calls, hero completes, bb checks.

Flops (50) :
Qs9s6h
Td8h3s

So we have top 2 on top, bottom pair and a wrap on bottom

Hero checks, bb checks, V1 bets 100, V2 raises to 450, folds back to hero…

So there's a $600 cap per street? I'd just call the $450, there's no point in raising to $600. (If there wasn't a cap I would re-pot now.) Sucks the top board blocks your straight outs on the bottom a little but you have bd diamonds not to mention a pretty strong hand on the top. It's hard to be in a terrible spot either way, most of the time.

Fold.

It is no surprise I am about to say the decision is based on SPR.

In a $5-$10 game we have five players going to the flop for the minimum $10. The SPR is going to be huge unless players start the hand short stacked. With $2,000 effective starting stacks minus the $10 preflop and that divided by a $50 pot, you end up with a huge SPR 40.

On the flop the pot is $50. V1 overbets the pot to $100. V2 then raises to $450. Let that sink in for a minute as to just how much action has just occurred on a pot that started at $50. And this is with Hero so far not having put in any money post-flop. Hero needs to toss his cards in the muck without the nuts on at least one board given the SPR and the action.

On the top board, let’s define terms. Is everyone here fine calling the first board as Hero having “bare top two pair?” Technically Hero has a backdoor straight draw, but that is not a thing people mention nearly as much as a backdoor flush draw. But without much objection from anyone here, I’m going to call Hero’s hand on the top boards as a “bare top two pair.” SPR warning… Bare top two pair at SPR 1 or SPR 4 is fine to get in, but the bare top two pair at SPR 40 on a flush draw and massive straight draw board is setting money on fire if you get in.

On the bottom board, it is no surprise I’m also giving an SPR view. Let me use a strong NUT straight draw to illustrate. For example, if you have a 16 card nut wrap with no flush draw on a two-flush board, then it is fine to get in at SPR 1, at SPR 4 it is okay to get in, however it is already starting to get questionable. At SPR 40 there is no way getting in is a good play.

And let’s all be real here, guess what happens after the hero makes a loose flop call? The hero now justifies continuing to put money into the pot since he has already put so much into the pot. It is a circle jerk.

Fold on the flop.

Interesting hand.

I think call is ok, but proceeding with caution. Our hand is at equity disadvantage vs. many of the qq, 99, tt, 88 sets with draw on other board. We don't want to overvalue our wrap since some of the outs will win only half the board, but we don't want to undervalue it either. Ace gives us broadway or boat redraws on any high card.

Our 2p hand is much weaker and extremely vulnerable when ahead.

I decided against raise mostly because I think our hand benefits from staying multi-way and that we don't have any fold equity vs v2. It is certainly a reasonable option and will commit us to seeing showdown more often whereas call lets us fold poor turns.

This is debateable if hero actually does have the nuts w the QJ97 on the 108x board as hero most likely has the highest equity on the board even against the actual nuts of 1010xxx. Equity advantage supercedes “nuts”. 1010xxx is super volnuerable and is a dog against a nut wrap and back doors and possibly overs. Set of 10s is also super vulnerable bc it cant stay the nuts by the river. The smallest set capable of that is QQ.

So heros a favorite on at least one board imo which i think allows hero to not only just call but raise or call. Given the stack sizes and spr a call might be best.

If it were uncapped id be jamming w Q blocker for top set to get 99xxx off one board and inhave my wrap facorite on other board.

In this structure a call is fine and preferable hoping to entice a 3rd player and hitting our nut wrap.

Per bet. So we can make it $1050 here, but I think we should fold.

The Hero only invested $10 preflop.

Let that sink in Brothers and Sisters !!!

The absolutely positively worst mistake I see people make at live poker is when they have invested a small amount preflop and then proceed to lose a big amount on the hand and they didn't have a monster hand or monster draw. The risk to reward based on their hand strength is often way out of line. At my local casino, I see players turn a $25 pre-flop investment into a $5,000 loss all the time and they didn't have a monster hand or monster draw. This thread is a pure example of that.

Hero has only invested $10 pre-flop. Post-flop, V1 over-bets the pot and then V2 raises. IF Hero loses $2,000 on this hand and tells me on the flop on one board he had the bare top two pair and on the second board he had a wrap draw without a flush draw on a two-flush board, THEN I am going to tell that person they played the hand poorly.

SPR tells you all of this. If the SPR had been SPR 1 then I'm telling him he played it fine. If the SPR is SPR 4 then I'm telling him he played it fine. But, if the SPR is SPR 40 then I'm telling that person they set $2,000 on fire.

It is fine, it proves that poker is not dead if even on a poker forum there is such a disagreement over how to play a hand. But I'm going to keep showing up in this sub-forum giving the SPR opinion.

The amount you have invested is irrelevant. You either have the proper equity or not. The spot is close but its at least break even. So then it becomes a question of risk aversion.

I would most likely not play a bomb pot as i mostly play online and at casinos that dont do fun stuff like that.

But if i were to play i wouldnt throw away my equity w QJ97 on the 1083 rainbow.

We are just talking two different styles. And I am mentioning equity if only indirectly by mentioning the actions of V1's overbet of pot and V2's raise. Indirectly is often the best you can do on double board since their bets and raises could be for either or both boards.

But, I will say I mis-read the bottom board to be two-flushed and that was part of my dislike.

However, I've played plenty of Omaha high low and seen players chase half the pot. This new double board game has the same chase half the pot mentality and it is a loser. And an expensive loser if a $10 preflop investment becomes a $2,000 chase half the pot idea. The bare top two pair board with a two-flush and about half the deck making a straight is a long term losing board.

All of the above is adds up. Especially in the face of V1 over-bets the pot and V2 raises. Is either Villain doing this without a stronger hand than you on one and maybe both boards.

Committing a $2,000 stack into a $50 flop pot with a bet and raise in front of you without monster hands? If you want to call me risk averse, then okay. I'll call it something else. I'm fine agreeing to disagree.

Couple clarifications:
We could make it up to 1050
We don’t have a 7 in our hand

Any of you Omaha high low players please speak up. You have seen thousands or tens of thousands of split pots. You are actually quite qualified to discuss this new double board game. I need someone to back me up Bro. Enlighten the people that don't know just how much quartering goes on in a split pot game.

In Omaha poker since you have to use two cards in your hand a flush cannot be tied. A straight can be tied. If you are chasing half the pot with a straight draw in double board, well guess what, you are going to sometimes not get your straight and lose everything and sometimes you are going to make your straight only to see another player also has the same straight and you get “quartered.”

Double board chasing half the pot with the nut flush draw has some value especially when you have at least a little something something on the other board. But, chasing half the pot with straight draws in five card Omaha where you are likely to share the straight with another player is a losing game plan. In this thread, on the flop V1 over-bet the pot and then V2 raised. How are feeling about scooping the bottom board with your straight draw over instead splitting if you hit a straight? Quartered is the most likely result. That plays into accurately estimating equity. And that plays into double board strategy.

Overhead at the poker table..."Yeah, I won the bottom board, oh wait, crap I got quartered. Damn I had only put in $10 preflop and then proceeded to shovel in the rest of my $2,000 only to get quartered. Damn my stack is so much smaller now and I actually won one of the boards."


The first line of any Omaha high low book is, “don’t chase half the pot.”

When someone finally writes a book about double board, the first line will be, “don’t chase half the pot.”

The amount that we personally have invested doesn't matter. The fact that this is a five way limped in pot, and it is bet raise in front of us is pretty important. Like the old adage goes "do not go broke in a limped in pot".

Ladybruin, i agree there is a reasonable case to fold flop, but it is far from a clear-cut spot, especially against unknown. And general population tends to be pretty leaky on double board.

Like its pretty safe to assume Hero has at least 40% equity on average vs V2 if V1 folds. And at least 25% equity on average if it stays 3w. So we shouldn't be super worried about seing a turn, if we think we can play future streets adaquately.

If villain is overvaluing a set without much backup, hero could easily be significant favorite.

This is yet another “players play bad” post. These types of posts are nothing but excuses. Poker players playing badly is already baked into the equation of every thread. If the OP of a thread states that the players are unknown, then any other poster is making excuses for their post by adding, “players play bad.”

So who exactly is playing bad? Unknown white guy V1 that over-bet the pot? Or an unknown white guy V2 that then raised more than pot?


This is a double board.

You didn’t state which board you are talking about. I’m left to assume. I assume you are talking about Hero possibly having 40% equity with his wrap on the bottom board against V2 if V1 folds. Again I’ll state this is a double board. Hero has only invested $10 preflop so far. Now the game plan is to chase half the pot with his remaining effective $1990 to win half the pot. The preflop pot is $50 and we will add in V1’s postflop $100. Hero is to chase half of a $150 pot with his $1990 stack. Hmmmm.


Again this is a double board and three handed. Against which of these unknown villains are you trying to create a situation where the Hero is a favorite? Which villain? Unknown white guy V1 that over-bet the pot? Or an unknown white guy V2 that then raised more than pot?


----

Everyone, this is a double board game. You guys are fixated on chasing half the pot by trying to talk about one board you might have equity. And are pretending away that this is double board and you are mostly dead with a bare top two pair on a flush draw board that about half the deck will make a straight. Seriously who is most likely to get scooped/quartered? Hero? Or unknown white guy V1 that over-bet the pot? Or an unknown white guy V2 that then raised more than pot? Or if you don't know much about split pot games, which player here is probably making the dumbest play? Unknown white guy V1 that over-bet the pot? Or an unknown white guy V2 that then raised more than pot? Or Hero for continuing with the hand give V1 & V2 actions in front of him?


-----

This hand is like having A3xx in Omaha high low. You limp preflop which is fine. And then there is a ton of action on the flop in front of you which indicates that you aren't scooping the pot and the best you can do is probably get quartered. It was fine to limp preflop, but with all the action in front of you on the flop it is now time to cut your losses and fold.

Agree with LB here. We all seem to agree that we don't clearly have enough equity to initiate fresh money. Getting HU with V2 is far from a frequent outcome and when we do I can't say we're going to scoop a lot more frequently than get scooped. So how much are you willing to risk to protect ~$20 pot share? Playability is difficult to find in this game. Clearly identifying scooping outcomes is harder than PLO8 where they are concentrated in individual cards (over the turn and river) rather than two card combos (over the turn and river). Even if we could close the action for $450, we will still make FTOP mistakes on the turn. But, then, there's still two players left to act and even if they fold we can still be playing for stacks on the flop against further concentrated ranges.

Yes, we can already be ahead on top but we can also be already behind or already chopping. Yes, one way draws can make money mw but really need them to be unique (flushes, quads, some boats).

My equity estimates were for both boards (average equity).

https://youtu.be/GFihhTnBiHc

I found a good video on how people over value their hands in live plo double board bomb pots

I'm going to call this a semi-"players play bad" post.

I can post any YouTube video by Jnanadez or even that cute dude Andrew Neeme and you will see an entire video of poker players playing bad.

I'm going to pretend away this junk post. And we can get back to the actual boards to see if Hero can be a winner on this specific split pot.

So pretending away that video you just posted, I'll ask you your thoughts on getting quartered with the straight draw you keep hyping in a SPLIT pot game. I mentioned you need to go strong with flushes not straights and I like the way Munga30 just described how you avoided piling in money in split pot games to avoid getting quartered..."Yes, one way draws can make money mw but really need them to be unique (flushes, quads, some boats)."

Getting back on track, not many people have said much about the top board and Hero's "bare" top two pair.

It is a split pot game, half the money is going to the winner of the top board.

AdQdJd9c3h (Hero's hand)
Qs9s6h (top board)

The board is two-flush that we don't have any blockers and makes a straight 52% of the time.

Just as an example.

Ignoring v1.

Crude ranges

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...0%25&s=generic

For bottom board, hero has 50%


Obviously just the super simple ranges here as many combo draws like ajt9xss possible, but should show that hero can have good 2-board equity against strong ranges.

Crude ranges is right. Am I reading this right? That is the top board and where the hell are all the straights draws that make a straight 51% of the time? And the flush draw? One of us must be drunk right now.

You are being overly optimistic. Even a few posts up where you said at least 40% equity heads up and at least 25% equity three-way is overly optimistic. If V1 who over-bet the flop or V2 who raised more than pot have on either board the same draw as Hero plus a better made hand, then Hero is crushed to maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the overly optimistic equity you keep mentioning.

I could post Hero having 20% equity heads up on one of the boards and that would be more realistic than the crude range you just posted.

The biggest danger for this hand is running into set of qq or 99, because they have us crushed on top and still split on bottom.

But again, i don't think we need to be afraid of seeing a turn. This hand is still high in our range and spread limit betting makes it harder to evaluate the action. Hero should actually consider leading, as many hands besides qqxxx should be cautious raising.

It's possible that if i spent a lot of time on sims, i start learning fold.

It is worse than just running into a set.

I think everyone reading this thread can relate to playing normal 4-card Omaha and we turn over our hand and our opponent has almost the same identical hand. Well in 5-card Omaha what happens is your opponent will turn over the same draw as you plus have a better made hand. That is why I am saying your being overly optimistic, it isn't just getting crushed by the set, it is getting crushed by the set and them having the same draw as us. You are incorrectly stating how cautiously players should be raising and how often. Give me Set+flush-draw or Set+straight-draw or flush-draw+straight-draw and I am going hog wild. And my Set+straight-draw on rainbow board is probably matching someone else's straight draw and they have no idea how much trouble they are in. The right types of combo draws are easy to raise. You can freeroll/quarter the crap out of people in 5-card Omaha if you understand the right combos to use.

You and Bohemian are too attached to a straight draw that can get you quartered in a split pot game. I've also noticed neither you nor Bohemian seem to want to address quartering even though this is a...

SPLIT POT GAME

I said it and Munga30 said it even better, you need unique hands that can't tie like flushes, quads and some full houses.

I disagree that only QQxxx for top set should be raising. I mentioned part of this in the post of above, but let me give an example of how wide I'd raise with every set. This is only for illustrative purposes.

Raise on flop with

Top set + 4 card straight draw
Middle set + 8 card straight draw
Bottom set + 12 card straight draw

That is just a sample. I can come up with a lot more combo draws to than that to raise the flop.

It really comes down to the math… we can be afraid of monsters under the bed and play as risk averse as we want but its nonsensical to ignore the math.

If you have over 33% equiity on both boards and it goes 3 ways we can call it a neutral ev spot and fold.

But if we have greater than 33% then were folding away our equity which is a win for oppenents.

Its also nonsensical to say Q9 isnt winning here a % of the time. That board could easily be fd abd wraps.

The hand were most afraid of is QQJ9 but we quadruple block that hand.

Im not saying this is a spot i seak out but its close and possibly +ev.

Stating the obvious like not wanting to get quartered.

I thought my rampage video was funny but also kinda relevant in that population tendency is to not play perfectly in bomb pots.