Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-06-2017, 01:48 PM   #1
BirdsallSa
grinder
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 673
Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

My current game plays very loose passive with even the stronger players in the field limping hands such as TTJ4sssx, Q842ssxx, etc. I have been really struggling to find a good preflop hand selection as I feel like I need to be playing at least 20% of hands, especially with no raise in position, but I constantly run into dominating hands.

I also run into situations quite frequently where I have a good two way hand such as a wrap with a flush draw, and will end up against a set and someone with a bare nut flush draw putting me in horrible shape. I am beginning to think that I need to just wait for super nutty hands to play so that I will almost always be dominating when I come into a pot. But I just don't see how I could have a significant winrate only playing say 15% of hands.

At 20 hands per hour and at 15% (3 hands per hour) I would need to have an ev of over 3bb/hand just to be making 10bb/hr. Are you guys playing more hands than this? And if so, how are you avoiding getting into terrible spots against dominating hands?
BirdsallSa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2017, 09:02 PM   #2
SolarAU
old hand
 
SolarAU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: popping bottles w/ the boys
Posts: 1,471
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

In loose full ring games the best and only good winning strategy is to play hands that flop or draw to the nuts frequently on boards they hit, big well connected ds pairs and rundowns, well connected suited Axxx hands. You don't want to play hands where you're put into tough spots post flop like weak flush draws and dominated wraps/ SDs or hands that frequently don't flop top 2 pair, top set etc. When you have a piece of a board you want to be confident you can get your money in with the best dominating equity.

Also 20 hands an hour in a full ring game is pretty optimistic unless your dealer is very fast and action is moving swiftly. When I play full ring games I probably play somewhere between 3-5 hands per hour on average I'd guess, maybe even less.
SolarAU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2017, 10:26 PM   #3
BDHarrison
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,024
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

20% VPIP or less while nut peddling sounds reasonable. I'm not sure I break 20% VPIP in a less passive game anyways. If your opponents are very obvious when they have the nuts, it's pretty easy, so long as you're not an action junkie. I'd expect you to have a higher win rate than 2/5 NL.

You can play more hands in late position because you aren't as worried about a raise. You should be able to dump hands like a bottom wrap or middle set when facing a single bet on the flop.
BDHarrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2017, 03:32 AM   #4
smoothcriminal99
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 766
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

20 hands an hour seems really low. That's one orbit a dealer. Think it's usually around 30ish for PLO. 3bb/hand you play seems really low too but not a stat anyone really keeps track of. Don't really think you are focusing on the right things at all tbh...

are your opponents making bigger mistakes then you? How? If they're putting in 1bb every hand but playing perfect post flop probably not a good game even though most people think it is. Your probably losing in that game and if you play perfectly you make at most like 4-5bb/hr off their mistake. Are they calling 1-2 bets with bad draws or bad made hands consistently? Probably a good game if everyone is doing that it's like 20bb+/hr. Identify their mistakes and quantify their mistakes and make sure you do not make them and you will have a good idea of your winrate.

If your losing a lot of money with dominated draws you probably are either not playing them in position or playing them poorly in position. Majority of the money from playing weak draws is not hitting it's either from playing them aggressively (fold equity) or bluffing other draws (bluff outs) or rarely implied odds but most people aren't that sticky in PLO and you get into trouble overplaying your hand if your thought is that

You really just seem inexperienced and not thinking about the game the right way tbh

Last edited by smoothcriminal99; 10-09-2017 at 03:49 AM.
smoothcriminal99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2017, 06:21 AM   #5
baat
adept
 
baat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 862
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

How deep are you playing usually?
baat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2017, 02:08 PM   #6
U5eless Bluff
grinder
 
U5eless Bluff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Flipalicious
Posts: 606
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

Really want to start playing live, but 3-5 hands an hour sounds bleak.
U5eless Bluff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2017, 02:45 PM   #7
BDHarrison
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,024
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

Quote:
Originally Posted by U5eless Bluff View Post
Really want to start playing live, but 3-5 hands an hour sounds bleak.
Would you rather play 5 hand per hour and win $50/hour or play 15 hands and win $40/hour?
BDHarrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2017, 05:28 PM   #8
U5eless Bluff
grinder
 
U5eless Bluff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Flipalicious
Posts: 606
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
Would you rather play 5 hand per hour and win $50/hour or play 15 hands and win $40/hour?
I dont play professionally, so more hands = more fun > slightly better win rate
U5eless Bluff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2017, 06:39 PM   #9
smoothcriminal99
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 766
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

Quote:
Originally Posted by U5eless Bluff View Post
I dont play professionally, so more hands = more fun > slightly better win rate
20% vpip players in PLO would prob have like 10% vpip in holdem. It's the equivalent of only playing tt/aq+. Is it really profitable in a live game.. usually. Is it the most profitable or how most people actually play... no. I've never heard people say you should be playing less hands per hour in PLO vs holdem unless you are very short handed. That being said starting out in holdem or PLO it is better to be tighter then normal because those decisions are usually easier
smoothcriminal99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2017, 06:42 PM   #10
BirdsallSa
grinder
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 673
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

Stack depth varies a lot in this game. I make sure to always have at least 100bb. A lot of people in this game short but though. Typically most players at the table will eventually end up with 100-300bb and infrequently people will end up 500bb+ deep.

In response to the post about what mistakes my opponents are making: I'd say they don't really make mistakes like calling with a bare non nut flush draw, but they definitely overvalue hands like two pair with no re-draw, hi or lo only hands in hi-lo pre and post flop (this is probably the most profitable mistake in my game), and calling with small straights/dominated wraps. I'd say that my opponents in general tend to play pretty well when it comes to flush draws and flush boards, but poorly at just about everything outside of that.
BirdsallSa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2017, 09:48 PM   #11
BDHarrison
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,024
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothcriminal99 View Post
20% vpip players in PLO would prob have like 10% vpip in holdem. It's the equivalent of only playing tt/aq+. Is it really profitable in a live game.. usually. Is it the most profitable or how most people actually play... no. I've never heard people say you should be playing less hands per hour in PLO vs holdem unless you are very short handed. That being said starting out in holdem or PLO it is better to be tighter then normal because those decisions are usually easier
At a limp-y table where no one raises without a premium hand, I think you should be limping with more hands in NL than in PLO. At a hold em table, I might limp with 85s in the HJ after three limpers. I might not limp with whatever you consider to be the equivalent hand in Omaha.

I still fold hands like KJ65ds on the button in a limped pot in this sort of game.
BDHarrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2017, 12:39 AM   #12
smoothcriminal99
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 766
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
At a limp-y table where no one raises without a premium hand, I think you should be limping with more hands in NL than in PLO. At a hold em table, I might limp with 85s in the HJ after three limpers. I might not limp with whatever you consider to be the equivalent hand in Omaha.

I still fold hands like KJ65ds on the button in a limped pot in this sort of game.
you really fold kj65ds after 3 limpers otb? that seems absurdly tight... I would imagine your vpip is like 5-10% then or you're not very positionaly aware. for a 20% vpip i'd imagine a range like 30-40% otb and that should definitely be top 40%

Ya i don't think my default is to overlimped 85s in hj over 3 limpers in nlhe either that was always a raise or fold for me leaning heavily towards fold. Don't really see the point of limping. Is it to make a strong hand like 5% of the time and get paid or to steal w/ position or get to a cheap showdown w/ bottom pair? Just seems like a bad multiway hand unless the players are terrible and if they're terrible i'd just iso them instead of over limping usually. If you are playing that hand you have to believe you are going to play better postflop then your opponents. I don't understand why you wouldn't think the same for Omaha where people on average play worse.

Last edited by smoothcriminal99; 10-10-2017 at 12:53 AM.
smoothcriminal99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2017, 01:37 AM   #13
BDHarrison
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,024
Re: Approximate VPIP For Full-Ring Loose Passive Live 1/2/5

I'm actually super positionally aware. At this table I would limp with a hand like AKT2 with a suited ace OTB and fold it UTG. I don't play KJ65ds because I don't see very many flops where I am happy to get it in against someone else in a massively multi-way pot. If one of your better scenarios is OESD+non-nut flush draw, you're usually better dumping that hand if a lot of people are seeing the flop. I'd rather play it against a single raiser than against five limpers.

I pretty much never iso-raise. I don't even iso much in hold em. I can play 85s in NLHE because my image is such that I get paid off by people who don't think I play that hand. In PLO, I don't get paid off like that, but I can't bring myself to bluff through seven people unless the situation is perfect.

20% VPIP means I am folding hands like AT82ds or QQJ2badugi UTG but limping with them OTB. It also means that I often get players to forfeit 30-40% equity when I bet or raise when they call or even 3bet against other players. It means I pick spots to bluff certain players when I know they have a full house.
BDHarrison is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online