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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 07-26-2020, 03:42 AM   #1
The Financier
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700 BB 3/6 hand

9 handed table playing 3/6

SB: $300
UTG: $2000 (competent player, winner in the game)
Hero on button: $2000

Three limps to me and i have KKTT clubs and I pot to $33, get 3 callers, pot is $130.

Flop Qs Th 6h

Checks to me and I bet $100. SB calls and UTG pots to $540ish. Back on me with middle set and I call. Seems like the right play this deep, raising gets it in vs QQ and wrap+FD hands and my equity vs that isn't doing well. SB calls all in. Plan is to go with it on safe cards on turn.

Turn Ks

UTG moves all in for $1400. Extremely interesting spot here. My thinking is the AKJ w/hearts draws are much less likely given that I have KK, there's a king on the board. Could also have AJ9 that got there obv. But still think QQJ or QQ with hearts still piles turn as villain has to bet me off my equity if I have ace high hearts and two pair or something. The queen not being a heart also increases chances he might be willing to go with it if he has a flush draw along with it. What would you guys do in my spot?
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Old 07-26-2020, 10:18 AM   #2
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

I would have shoved it in on flop.

You said you would go in on turn if board is safe, Im assuming you would then fold if board is not safe.

This turn card is interesting that it is not necessarily unsafe in that opponent may not have the straight, but if he does you have less outs.

And if he had QQ, you now beats it. Personally, if I had QQ without anything else and im here at this turn oop, I'd shove also. And if I had hearts draw without making the straight, Id shove also.

Overall, in your shoes then, Id call turn.
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Old 07-26-2020, 11:58 AM   #3
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

^Shoveling it all in on flop has to be absolutely torching money.. Or maybe I'm a total nit. I just feel like any reasonable range construction from villain has our face smashed in this deep. Because he either has the nuclear wrap+nfd, or QQ, or some damn 6689hh that we flip with anyhow. I have a hard time coming up with a range which isn't QQ or stuff that we flip with. Which isn't good.

And I would say if villain has the heart draw he also has a straight almost always on turn here.
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Old 07-26-2020, 01:42 PM   #4
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

I agree with you Loctus that getting it in on flop is lighting money, vs QQ we in bad shape and vs AKJhh or AJ9hh or A987hh we are close to 50/50. So makes no sense to get it in on the flop.

Regarding "And I would say if villain has the heart draw he also has a straight almost always on turn here." couldn't villain have QQJhh or AQQhh? AQThh, AKQhh, etc? There have to be combos of flush draws that aren't made straights on turn. The Queen being a spade on the flop and not a heart opens up much more combos of that does it not?

What do you guys think about the argument that when I have KK it weighs his flop c/r range more towards QQ because three kings are accounted for? If I had TT22 I'd fold this turn easily and not think about it. Any A/J/9 or heart I fold turn but the K is the hardest card in the deck when a lot of his c/r range is QQ and three kings are out of the deck
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Old 07-26-2020, 08:07 PM   #5
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

Flop is very interesting spot, not sure we can bet/fold but bet/jam may be better than bet/call (when it is 3w and bloated). Maybe we do better using a different sizing?

As played, i actuallly think we can fold turn; in protected pots with all-in player both players should have much stronger ranges.

And even though we block ak, we don't block aj or j9 - even if villain has qq or a weaker made hand he should have redraws.

Player is describer as competent, i think fold is correct - even if he gets a few qqjx and qjtx through as semibluffs.

Last edited by monikrazy; 07-26-2020 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 07-27-2020, 12:09 AM   #6
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

pretty sure villain is snap shoving all of his QQ combos, it's not like he has a choice

so just comes down to frequencies - if you think he has QQ (or worse) at least 20% of the time in this spot you call
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Old 07-27-2020, 12:41 AM   #7
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

Yea, he has to shove his QQ combos, I agree. That's why I called and he showed up with AKJhh, oh well. Given that I think his flop c/r has to be minimum 50% QQ I thought I had to call when I improved to KK and block the AKJhh wraps he could also be c/r flop with as I cut down on those combos significantly. Thought it was an interesting hand.
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Old 07-27-2020, 03:37 PM   #8
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

I wonder if he check pots the flop with a bare AJhh? If we assume he check/pots AJhh with something else, qq, wrap+, then we definitely should call. I'm assuming on the turn we fold to a heart, call everything else? I wonder what the villain does with qq here on a heart turn? Interesting hand.
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Old 07-27-2020, 06:40 PM   #9
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

Turn plan was fold to any A/J/9 or heart. I don't think he pots just AJhh out of position, think it's just AKJhh
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Old 07-28-2020, 11:21 AM   #10
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

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Turn plan was fold to any A/J/9 or heart. I don't think he pots just AJhh out of position, think it's just AKJhh
I wonder the math on calling the flop raise if we're folding roughly 1/3 of turns and even the turns we get it in on we're still probably just 65% or so.
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Old 07-28-2020, 11:38 AM   #11
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

There is argument for folding flop with these exact stack sizes due to how badly we do against a fairly tight range this deep, and how we're playing for the full 2k.

On blank turns we are still only 60% against AKJhh and 14% vs QQ** and the combo count is weighted a lot towards QQ here.

Besides when we make quads and we get it in versus top full, there aren't that many turns where we get the last 1400 in very ahead. The guy probably won't punt 1400 in if a 6 or a Q comes on the turn with a draw given there is an SB all-in and the side-pot is only 500.

Last edited by Stryd0r; 07-28-2020 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 07-29-2020, 06:29 AM   #12
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

Checking flop is also fine some % of the time. Flop feels like a fold we have better hands to defend vs a xr
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Old 07-30-2020, 01:21 AM   #13
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

What about turn Ninja and Strydor?
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:40 AM   #14
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

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What about turn Ninja and Strydor?
Turn we have to call now. He can still be jamming QQ + fd / gutters etc
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:49 PM   #15
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

Would be nice to know if you have the K: heart:

Getting in more than 300bbs in a single-raised pot here is ev suicide. If you think he's wide and light I don't mind calling to evaluate turns, but I really have no problem with a fold either.

As played you gotta go with it.
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Old 08-04-2020, 09:50 AM   #16
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700 BB 3/6 hand

I wouldn’t bet this flop vs 3 players with no real additional equity or blockers. You’ll get checkraised a lot on this flop vs a range that you don’t dominate and most turns are ugly.

If we had a Q, or a high heart, gutterball or bdfd I would bet.

If we keep the pot small we can get value from a much wider range on cleanish runouts and max value when we boat up because your opponents will simply eliminate sets from your flop range.


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Old 08-04-2020, 09:24 PM   #17
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

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Originally Posted by Czech Rays View Post
I wouldn’t bet this flop vs 3 players with no real additional equity or blockers. You’ll get checkraised a lot on this flop vs a range that you don’t dominate and most turns are ugly.

If we had a Q, or a high heart, gutterball or bdfd I would bet.

If we keep the pot small we can get value from a much wider range on cleanish runouts and max value when we boat up because your opponents will simply eliminate sets from your flop range.


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Like seriously wtf. This is sooo sooo sub optimal I don't even know where to begin. What games do you play live/online and what stakes?

Of all the hands that is in your range, you flopped the second nut, and you're AFRAID to bet?
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Old 08-05-2020, 11:17 PM   #18
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

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Like seriously wtf. This is sooo sooo sub optimal I don't even know where to begin. What games do you play live/online and what stakes?

Of all the hands that is in your range, you flopped the second nut, and you're AFRAID to bet?
Doubt its about being afraid. While we do hold the 'second nuts', putting it like that really overstates our holding on this board on the flop.

Hows this for a oddball line: raise or c/r first opportunity on flop or turn in order to put SB all in, then benefit from reduced bluff and draw donks on later streets.
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Old 08-06-2020, 05:00 AM   #19
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

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Doubt its about being afraid. While we do hold the 'second nuts', putting it like that really overstates our holding on this board on the flop.



Hows this for a oddball line: raise or c/r first opportunity on flop or turn in order to put SB all in, then benefit from reduced bluff and draw donks on later streets.
do you have an understanding of ranges in poker?

So what hand do bet here on this flop?
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Old 08-06-2020, 08:12 AM   #20
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

You're overcomplicating it, guys.

Just because sometimes you don't know what to do when facing a raise doesn't mean you shouldn't bet - we have a very strong hand on this board, but once we get raised, that hand strength shrivels up massively. So bet-fold is absolutely fine. We're expecting to get called more often than we are raised anyway.
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Old 08-06-2020, 09:41 AM   #21
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

Expected to see a 700BB hand... was disappointed

As for the hand it is entirely player dependent but standard is stack off at some point I just make exploitable adjustments to fold flop usually versus tight players who only cr with nutted hands oop (which is a surprisingly high amount of people)
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Old 08-06-2020, 02:10 PM   #22
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

We should only check hands that don't have that much value when called and if we feel particularly awful about both bet/calling and bet/folding versus both players and this isn't an example. Here we can quite comfortably bet/call versus the shorter stack and bet/fold versus the bigger one, and there's lots of value in getting check/called.
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Old 08-06-2020, 02:17 PM   #23
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

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You're overcomplicating it, guys.

Just because sometimes you don't know what to do when facing a raise doesn't mean you shouldn't bet - we have a very strong hand on this board, but once we get raised, that hand strength shrivels up massively. So bet-fold is absolutely fine. We're expecting to get called more often than we are raised anyway.
This pretty much, if our betting range is only QQ and AhKxJh9 then we’re probably not betting enough haha
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Old 08-06-2020, 09:48 PM   #24
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

Typically, on QT6 two tone flops vs 1 opponent, my betting range includes:

All sets, all 2 pairs, nut flush draw, combo draws, top pair w fd/sd. I will fold some of these to a raise.

Particular situation has 2 opponents so tighten up the betting range a bit but not by much.
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Old 08-08-2020, 11:07 AM   #25
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Re: 700 BB 3/6 hand

It seems that whether to fold, call, raise all in on the flop is a tough decision BUT:
IMHO Calling, does not make sense since we don’t know what to do facing an almost automatic bet on the turn. Raising is catastrophic if we are against QQ and slightly favorite if we are against a 17 + outs
Plus The small blind is obviously on a draw, therefore it is more likely we are facing QQ. So My choice is to fold.
And if my image is as a nit who loves free cards and positional advantage I will certainly fold. The only big mistake we will be making by folding is if we are against 66??
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