With your reads that they both have made hands (top set and second set or two pair or he thinks A-high flush is a non-tank made hand?), just fold. Would be nice to have a little more info on them since you seem to know them pretty well. Do they usually check/raise big hands? What type of hands have they led with?

With the reads given in OP, I still think checking the flop is wrong, and I still haven't seen a response to what happens on a blank turn if we are bet into? endodocdc mentioned "act accordingly," but what does that mean? Just fold?

+1
before we were told how the hand played out i said bet 400 or so, get it in with one shorter stack, fold to two stacks or the big stack.

just because you got check double shipped on in this specific spot doesn't make betting wrong at all.

PLO is a multi layered game and far more complex than NLHE. There are obv many ways to play a hand, but I would say in PLO betting to "charge draws" is fallacious and a common mistake by NLHE players playing in this game (my opinion only and I don't want to offend anyone). In PLO, the biggest objective is to prevent villains from realizing their equity..This can happen by betting, checking, and raising.

Literally, the worst line ever taken is to pot/repot with 2nd NF. The reason is simple.. all weaker hands fold and all better hands (i.e. A high flush) calls. This outcome is the opposite of our objective, because the villain has good visibility and can realize his/her equity correctly. This is the problem with a K high flush draw.

Betting flop with hero's hand is a semi-bluff at best (and not protecting our hand as some have said) ..If I'm semi bluffing, I'd rather do it with a hand that can turn into the nuts. Now, heads up against one villain I am fine betting the flop out. But against three villains, our equity shrinks alot and Id rather check and play turn in position.

Ya I would b/f to that action but it seems a little rare for 2 players to shove. I still like betting close to pot otf

endodocdc, what do you do on a blank turn, say 4d, if bet into? It seems as if you are done with the hand no matter what. Are you? If you can't answer the question of what to do on a blank turn, you shouldn't be posting. You raised pre, hit the second nut flush draw with an over-pair, were checked into by three players (two are 75bb or less), and you check -- what is your plan?

Dude, chill out on your tone! As a courtesy to OP, whom I have known on the forums for over 5 years, I decided to post and give my opinion on this hand. The answer to your questions have been given in my posts. But since you require cookbook recipe I will summarize for you:

1) I don’t know what the purpose of a bet on the flop is? Is it bluff, semi bluff, value/protection? We don’t know if we are really pushing much equity on the flop by betting..so I think flop check is best because we have position.

1a) Betting flop is bad because it doesn’t fold any better hands out and we can get blown off of our equity.

2) On a blank turn, if it gets checked back to us, then I bet close to pot

3) On a blank turn, if the first villain pots, then second villain ships, I;m done

4) On a blank turn if it gets checked to the third villain and he pots it, I am more comfortable jamming over his range

5) The difficult spot is if first villain checks and the second villain (the passive one) pots it, The decision becomes fold or shove, leaning towards fold. I hate shoving with one card to come, but I think if we want to continue in the hand, our equity is best by shoving since it can fold out NFD and assure we get the money in before a river scare card freezes the action on the river.

lol at overthinking this spot

Yeah I will say I bet/called pretty quick especially given my reads.

I'd say every like 80% of the really good players I know basically said pot and don't fold. Alot of good but not great players liked checking otf. Alot of bad players liked pot gii.

With these effective stack sizes "not folding to a 2k CR" and "gii" are basically the same thing right? So the really good players and the bad players offered the same advice

I don't play enough PLO these days to be in a "good" category but I'd have leaned toward checking back the flop. Given the read that both Vs had a preponderance of made hands I suppose you could go with it once you bet the flop.

How did the bet/call work out?

I like your explanation and agree with you.
I wrote also before in my answer also, I would check this flop always and always behind against 3 players.

Got it in good, got scooped

Please show the results.
Or at least what was the turn card?

1) it does actually fold out hands with very good equity ie. 2 pair no redraw
it also builds a pot vs hands with bad equity like straight lower flush draws

as for getting blown off the equity- yes this does suck but you protect for more equity on average than you get blown off of

2)that's great- there aren't a lot of turn bricks

3)well no ****

4)except there aren't a lot of blanks, and on a lot of those blanks he now has 2 pair, you rep nothing and you get it in behind

5)i agree

Additionally none of this has taken in metagame at all.You'll get a lot more action overall with your good hands and monsters if you're betting this flop.

I said it earlier in this thread- I used to basically always check this type of hand in this spot. Since i started betting it a lot more often (not 100 pct) my results have been much better and get a lot more people to stick it in with hands that are either flipping vs me or stone dead .

Basically I'm to the point where in close spots that could go either way -be aggressive and don't feel bad about it the times it backfires especially when it's the opposite of what most people do in the same spot

It was set over set, first board turn was a 9

Borg
I appreciate your thoughts and conceptually agree with a lot of what you say, especially the Metagame aspect and specifically your last paragraph.
I guess the point of departure between our analysis is in the first point in your post. I gotta be honest, I don’t see many recs fold 2pair no redraws here on the flop at least , not in games I play. They peel once. But if you feel they can fold 2pair then that’s a massive equity surrender and would justify a bet as you advocate. I also don’t see many weaker flushes coming along unless it also has some straightening cards to go with it.

It’s tricky to bet/f given these varying stack sizes and think that often we bet/ call because we’re forced to, given we find ourselves pot committed.

Regardless I respect your analysis.


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I don't see people folding top 2 but people play way too much pure junk pre so they'll flop bottom 2 with like 1010xx no suits not connected or top pair a gut shot and an ace an over card with some trash hand that's suited to like the 5 preflop then have no idea what to do post flop.Against your hand heads up they have some decent equity but can't continue and you fold out that equity.

So many mistakes in multi way PLO pots really are just playing trash pre and even when you flop decent equity barring flopping a boat you just don't know you have decent equity ,have no idea where you are in the hand and just are forced to make big mistakes.

You run into your opponents holding far more trouble hands where they have to fold decent equity (or continue with no clue where they are in the hand) than you do too set or nut flush draw hands

It def sucks when you bet and get blown off the hand when you would have binked the turn but you can't feel bad about that.

I think this is actually a really interesting hand unlike most posted on here.I just hope it would have been posted if the op just got folds on the flop or got called and then just got to show down bc it's a fairly common spot and whether my opinion is right or wrong very worthy of discussion.

I think this is an interesting hand, too. The thought of raising this hand pre and then not betting this flop vs. these players and action would never occur to me, but it's interesting reading other people's opinions. Seems as if we shouldn't raise pre if we aren't betting this flop, but that's just my opinion.

FWIW, I would have folded to the raise and ai, especially if I put them both on made hands, which means at least one would have a set (realistically both, as was the case).

yes it's the easiest fold in the world once two people ship

I like this thread too, full with different opinions.
I like also raising this hand preflop and I would like to Cbet on good flops, but this was in my opinion not a very good flop to bet against 3 players.

#noragrets

I'd advise people to not call here as well, just had a timing tell given history where second player had a made hand

When we have a hand that can bet profitably, we check back because we realise more by checking. Here it's not that easy to realise. Betting to fold out equity and have a hand that does alright when called or raised is good enough. When you face 2 ships it's obviously a bit different.

We shouldn't pot as our sizing anyway.

What sizing you like?