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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 06-18-2021, 07:44 PM   #1
koking51
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5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

All players 1200 120 BB Effective
Action begins folded to MP who pots 35, I call on the BTN with DS 8h8SJhQS, SB Fold, BB raises to 95, MP Call, BTN Call

(Pot 290)
Flop: Js4d9d

BB check, MP bets 150 (1/2 pot) I call, BB then pots 890 effectively all in less than 200 behind, MP Folds, Hero???

The BB player has been playing like 60-70% of hands pre flop and lots of aggression with FD and Wraps, not afraid to get in with those holdings even on paired board runout. Loves to play any DS hand.

The MP Player was fairly new didn't have much info on him.

Would you guys just fold this on the initial flop bet or even to the three bet looking for a better spot?
I was going to fold if MP jammed, but with how the BB was playing i put him more towards FD/straight type hands.

Spoiler:

Last edited by koking51; 06-18-2021 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 06-18-2021, 09:35 PM   #2
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

Hate to be the fold pf guy, but fold pf.

As played, fold the flop the first time.
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Old 06-18-2021, 10:16 PM   #3
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

Its not a tough spot, fold flop both times.

I'm ok with pre-flop.
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Old 06-19-2021, 12:08 AM   #4
ladybruin
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

Warning: Another Stack-to-pot SPR post coming…

Currently when I read poker literature or watch videos I’ll often hear the phrase, “this is how the game is played.”

Well, this hand is an excellent example of why SPR is how the game is played.

Preflop:
MP open raises and you are on the BU with QsJh8s8h. You are the BU, however it is worth pointing out that if you had been the CO and weren’t guaranteed the best absolute position, then as the CO you could pre-flop, cold-call it or fold it if the rake in the game you are playing is horrible. Since you are the BU it is okay to cold-call, just understand this hand isn’t worth much. And most of its value is in winning a huge pot with a deceptive set of 8’s.

MP open raises, you as BU cold-call and then BB raises. The small amount of value you had when you cold-called versus the MP is now gone and you have a loser, but you have to call the preflop raise by BB.

FLOP:
SPR warning. Everyone starts the hand with 1200. Small Blind post 5, Big Blind post 10, MP raises to 35, BU (you) cold-call 35, BB raises to 95, SB folds, MP call, BU (you) call. There are 290 in the pot. The three of you on the flop all started with 1200 and now have 95 less from the preflop play. Therefore, you all have stacks of 1105. Stack-to-pot SPR means that 1105 divided by 290 equals 3.80 so let’s call it SPR 4. Here is the “how the game is played” part. At SPR 1 if you hit any part of the hand, then you get it in. At SPR 1 (and especially at below SPR 1) you mostly have the pot odds to call off your stack if you hit any part of the flop. At SPR 4 if you hit a good hand, then you get it in. At SPR 4, you don't need great, you need "good." At SPR 4, you are folding too much equity if you don't get it in with "good" hands. That is how the game is played. Is your hand on the flop good enough?

Side note, Bohemianwrapsody, in another thread talked about how the game is played. On the flop you often either 3-bet or fold. And I’ll often listen to YouTube poker videos and even in the last week while listening to Jnanadez, I can think of at least two times he was talking about SPR and getting it in and said, “that is just how the game is played.”

Koking51, is your hand good enough on the flop? The MP bet the flop and you called. This is not how the game is played. At SPR 4 when facing a flop bet you either 3-bet or fold. You do not call. That is how the game is played. So is your hand good enough to 3-bet and get it in? It depends. I say yes because of the re-draws. At SPR 4, top pair with re-draws is good enough to get it in. You have 4 outs to a straight and a backdoor flush draw. That is good enough of a re-draw for me at SPR 4.

Last edited by ladybruin; 06-19-2021 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 06-19-2021, 05:34 AM   #5
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

The value of your hand is dramatically reduced with the flush draw out there, and we're multiway, so someone probably has one. I'd fold flop. Your straight outs are not even clean/nutted if we do bink a T, and you have fewer two pair outs due to the pair in your hand, if you somehow were to get it in HU against a hand like AA. You're not really pushing an equity edge against naked AA and really just hope they fold this hand if you decide to just go with it.

Also, if this is a tough spot for you I would not call pre and just play tighter in general, even on the button.

I see the post above about spr, but I wonder if this applies multiway with the same force?

Your description of V makes me think V is just a good player on a heater, not a maniac, and you just read them for a maniac due to their "aggression."
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Old 06-19-2021, 07:23 AM   #6
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
I see the post above about spr, but I wonder if this applies multiway with the same force?
I would say it is a sliding scale. This hand is theee handed so the SPR point is still strong like if heads up. If it had been five handed like a recent thread, then that changes things. Speaking of which this sub-forum has recently had a lot of awesome threads that tell a part of the story. This thread is SPR 4 while another recent thread was SPR 9 and the decision therefore was different. This thread is three handed and another recent thread was five handed and the decision ended up being different.

"It depends" is always going to be a strong factor.

Last edited by ladybruin; 06-19-2021 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 06-19-2021, 07:31 PM   #7
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

Thank you guys for the feedback after thinking more about this hand I realize it was a bit too optimistic to even call the Flop, or even call the 3bet pre.
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Old 06-20-2021, 04:39 AM   #8
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

I call pre and of course call again vs minuscule 3b. Flop is a clear fold the first time
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Old 06-20-2021, 06:11 AM   #9
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

How many players at the table, and how many people fold before MP opens? This hand is a little second best for my taste if we are talking about full ring. Obviously, a lot will depend on MP's opening standards, but I'd give an unknown a decent amount of credit.
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Old 06-20-2021, 12:11 PM   #10
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

As a human we try to play an executable strategy. The game is extremely complex and some players try to justify their plays with phrases like, "clear fold." In my opinion, this hand is not as clear as you guys think, especially when trying to follow an executable strategy.

An executable strategy for SPR 1 is simple. At SPR 1, if you hit any piece of the flop, then you get it in.

An executable strategy for SPR 4 is a lot tougher. If you fold too often, then you will be folding too much equity. SPR 1 is "any piece of board" now SPR 4 isn't that wide but it is still wide. And being wide is particularly possible with re-drawS. Notice the S. Re-drawS are worth a lot and those re-drawS don't have to be to the nuts at SPR 4.

My super simple, but effective human strategy with three players on flop and this board at SPR 4 is to get it in with top pair if I have re-draws.

Last edited by ladybruin; 06-20-2021 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 06-20-2021, 05:04 PM   #11
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
How many players at the table, and how many people fold before MP opens? This hand is a little second best for my taste if we are talking about full ring. Obviously, a lot will depend on MP's opening standards, but I'd give an unknown a decent amount of credit.
There was 8 at the table but for this hand it was played 6 handed. UTG folds before mp opens to pot.
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Old 06-21-2021, 05:23 PM   #12
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

You flopped top-pair and a non-nut gut-shot in a 3-bet pot and are looking to jam your entire stack in a multiway pot on a flush draw board?

I'm definitely calling the 3-bet in position pre but need incredibly specific flops to go with; as played it's a super-easy fold, we have one-pair and a non-nut gutshot draw on a flush-draw board with multiple opponents showing strength.

We could easily be dead already and if we aren't we likely have like 10-20% equity at best; I like gambling but this is equivalent to lighting money on fire.
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Old 06-21-2021, 09:21 PM   #13
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Re: 5/T Tough Spot Multiway pot

Your hands pretty dusty itís just going to be a fold for me pre-, if I was going to play it I would 3-bet itÖmulti-way just play straightforward and fold flopÖhavenít played PLO in a while however
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