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Old 03-17-2019, 11:23 AM   #1
SocraticGambler
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5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

Playing late night at the 5/5 PLO+BIGO Mix game; typically runs like a 5/5/10 because at least half the table straddles but on this particular hand one of the dudes who plays tight and never straddles was UTG so it was just a regular 5/5 PLO Hand.

SB [$1800]
BB [$1400]
UTG [$1500]
UTG+1 [$2500]
MP [ $2000]
CO [$900]
Hero [$1500] on the button

Table has been playing super-aggro pre-flop, regardless of straddle or not almost every hand is getting raised PRE and sometimes even re-raised PRE as a squeeze/pot-builder because everyone is pretty deep (couple of players at +$2K).

4 limpers from MP including CO, I look down on the button at AQ99 and pot it to $35 to try and squeeze out the blinds at least and build a pot.

EVERYONE calls so it's 6 ways to the flop with $210 in there.

FLOP = 923

I'm like haven't seen a flop like this in ages in a multi-way raised pot where I'm the opener AND I'm on the button.

Checks around to me and I decide to just bet $100 straight (maybe under-sized this a little in hindsight) - only UTG folds, so I get 5 callers I definitely wanted some action which is why I under-sized my bet but didn't expect this madness, probably a mistake (be needy, not greedy).

Really wasn't expecting that, since I absolutely crushed the flop-range I dominate all hands except for wraps like A456 and even those I'me a big favorite against.

But of course the turn comes the 5 and I die a little death inside - checks around to the cut-off that bets pot of $710 and has like $50 behind that.

So board is 9235 and I need to call $710 into a pot of $1420 with 3 other players to act after me that all have equal/larger stacks.

Thoughts on flop+turn would be much appreciated.

Last edited by SocraticGambler; 03-17-2019 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 03-17-2019, 12:27 PM   #2
Vanhaomena
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

Easiest flat of all time
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Old 03-17-2019, 01:21 PM   #3
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

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Originally Posted by Vanhaomena View Post
Easiest flat of all time
Agreed, the only value in raising is to possibly knock out some flush draws but you are most likely beat by the bettor and need to boat up or hit your to win so you should actually welcome calls behind you to build up the pot for if/when you hit.
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Old 03-17-2019, 02:05 PM   #4
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

I disagree that turn is a bad card for us, he's just as likely to have some garbage like 5543 or 54 with a turned fd than a wheel or 654

you gotta still have the best hand here at least 40% of the time, now it's just up to you whether you want to charge backdoors extra. either way I'd be surprised if you get more than one caller
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:02 PM   #5
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

The pot is $810 not $710.
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:18 PM   #6
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
The pot is $810 not $710.
One of the guys must've folded so it was 5-handed for the turn, because CO definitely potted it for $710; was getting super-late so my memory was a little hazy but I remember that for certain. But thanks for the correction, much appreciated.

Do you guys think because I have so many callers though in a raised pot and a board like that which I led on that it's likely I'm missing a lot of outs?

It's like what could 4 different people be wanting to put in a call in a big pot OOP against an original raiser with on that board. The only nut draws out there (besides mine since I killed the deck) are wheel-wraps, so would seem very likely at least one guy has A4xx or 64xx, and on top of that I think it would be very frequent that at least one if not two guys have flush draws here (maybe with an over-pair like 1010/JJ possibly).

If someone had 22 or 33 it seems like they would want to lead or check-raise that flop, not check-call when it's 5 ways in a big pot OOP with so many draws on the board (since they can't put me on 99 but they could definitely put me on AAxx with or AKxx.). So really limits most guys hands to draws and they could be blocking pairs too with that 5 or with the 23 on the board, so while I might think I have 18 nut outs there might only be 10 left in the theory.

If they go ahead on the turn with the 5 then I wouldn't get paid on the river if I flat and the flush or full-house hit so I'd have to stack off on the turn to get max-value in a multi-way pot (especially since theoretically two could have A4xx or 64xx, either combo).

I typically always like to charge back-doors extra and the way guys were playing in this game they were CHASING, saw one guy later stack off on the turn for $1K with just AA with a backdoor flush draw (ended up chopping with another AAxx on a board of 235K rainbow they got it all in on the turn, river was a blank), so my instinct told me it would be better to ship then fold or I could get called behind by something like A67x or 5678 that would have huge draw equity calling 700 into 2100.

Maybe I give guys too much credit sometimes in bloated pots, but it's just so often you see monsters in this game it's always in the back of your mind.

Will post results shortly, thanks for the thoughts.

Last edited by SocraticGambler; 03-17-2019 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:18 PM   #7
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

I like your flop sizing if it was HU or 2 players, but vs 6 players, you may as well just pot the flop. There are 6 sets of 4 cards in your combined opponents' holdings, so the odds that somebody hit something on this flop is much higher than 1 set of 4 cards in your opponents' holdings. The only crime in such a multiway spot is not extracting more value.

Turn, like others said, is an easy flat. We can assume that C/O hit the nuts on this turn card betting into 6 people. You want lower sets and worse flush draws to tag along after your call, so why raise them out of the pot? If anybody calls behind, you have an easy river decision (you hit your hand or not)
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Old 03-17-2019, 09:36 PM   #8
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

I pretty much bet pot or not at all on the flop. Most of the exceptions involve manipulating a player to raise and reopen the betting. I play a tighter style, so I think I should be betting larger. Someone with a more LAG style should be betting smaller than I do.

As played, call the turn and call the impending check-raise. Since you block flush draws, it's likely that you have at least one opponent who was on a straight draw and hit. Since they've been super-aggro preflop, they are probably less likely to have over-pairs trying to bink a set and more likely to have little cards that make a straight draw on that flop. So, a straightening card is probably more likely to hit this field than others.
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:35 AM   #9
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

I see what you guys are saying about the flop now; it's better to just pot and get max-value (and force out weaker draws to limit the ranges you are up against). I don't really see any reason to check there as the initial raiser on the button, giving wayyy too many free cards to out-draw me when I should be trying to isolate.

Looks like a hole in my game currently is a tendency to "worst-case scenario" hand ranges when guys are shoving into big pots; sometimes you've gotta just go with it irregardless of the turn when you have such a big hand.

Spoiler:
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:24 PM   #10
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

yeah fold is super bad, like quit the game if you're even thinking of doing it again bad
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:52 PM   #11
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

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yeah fold is super bad, like quit the game if you're even thinking of doing it again bad
Noted - I clearly over-thought things, was very late and I was tired and had fought back from being $1K down to being just about even so psychologically I tricked myself I think.

My flop bet being weak put me in a position to make it foldable somehow in my eyes, where if I would've led pot and only gotten 1-2 callers I would've felt committed to stacking off on any turn.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:58 PM   #12
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

don't fold with top set and nfd
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:20 PM   #13
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

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don't fold with top set and nfd
Yes it was certainly a DONK move on my part.

I can blame being tired and/or try to find ways to justify my thinking, but it was just flat out bad.

Will not be making that mistake ever again!
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:49 PM   #14
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

Oceans?

Just call turn seems best.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:15 PM   #15
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

So, if you call (which you should), the donk bettor's 50ish behind makes a call trivially easy given the size of the pot. What's the smallest amount behind he could have where you would feel comfortable folding a river that doesn't improve you if he shoves?
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Old 03-19-2019, 02:22 AM   #16
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

obviously the fold is terrible and hopefully you learned from it.even if someone shows you the nuts on the turn you can't fold your hand.

however most of "it's better to just pot and get max-value (and force out weaker draws to limit the ranges you are up against). I don't really see any reason to check there as the initial raiser on the button, giving wayyy too many free cards to out-draw me when I should be trying to isolate."

is really flawed thinking. you bet the flop specifically so weaker hands with almost 0 equity put money in the pot when they are willing to.you aren't trying to isolate at all.if everyone calls- great.
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:14 PM   #17
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

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Originally Posted by Just another guy View Post
Oceans?

Just call turn seems best.
Yep, Ocean's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
So, if you call (which you should), the donk bettor's 50ish behind makes a call trivially easy given the size of the pot. What's the smallest amount behind he could have where you would feel comfortable folding a river that doesn't improve you if he shoves?
I pretty much treated his lead of pot on the turn as an all-in, the $50 behind meant nothing at that point. If I call the turn bet I have to call any river no matter what it is, we'd need to be far deeper for me to call and then fold a river shove if I blanked.

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Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
obviously the fold is terrible and hopefully you learned from it.even if someone shows you the nuts on the turn you can't fold your hand.

however most of "it's better to just pot and get max-value (and force out weaker draws to limit the ranges you are up against). I don't really see any reason to check there as the initial raiser on the button, giving wayyy too many free cards to out-draw me when I should be trying to isolate."

is really flawed thinking. you bet the flop specifically so weaker hands with almost 0 equity put money in the pot when they are willing to.you aren't trying to isolate at all.if everyone calls- great.
Is there any turn + action that can justify a fold?

Let's say the action is the same and the turn card is either 10 or J so board is:

23910 / 239J

If the SB/BB leads out and someone in MP (other then the cut-off so they are deeper stacked) comes over the top, what then? One of them could theoretically have a float hand like 1010JQ / 10JJQ / 10JQQ with 's or 's.

Am I just supposed to stack off no matter what the turn card is irregardless of the action?
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Old 03-19-2019, 03:33 PM   #18
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

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Originally Posted by SocraticGambler View Post
I pretty much treated his lead of pot on the turn as an all-in, the $50 behind meant nothing at that point. If I call the turn bet I have to call any river no matter what it is, we'd need to be far deeper for me to call and then fold a river shove if I blanked.
Well, yeah, I'm just curious how much people think he would need to not effectively treat him as all-in and call any river.
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Old 03-19-2019, 03:46 PM   #19
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

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Originally Posted by SocraticGambler View Post
One of the guys must've folded so it was 5-handed for the turn, because CO definitely potted it for $710; was getting super-late so my memory was a little hazy but I remember that for certain. But thanks for the correction, much appreciated.

Your weird Fold makes sense now.

Maybe this should be a discussion on when to get up from Poker Table. When does a marathon session start impacting EV.

Everything before the fold was fine IMO. Maybe the life lesson here is setting limits on yourself so as to always play optimally in top mental condition.

Last edited by dropnloads; 03-19-2019 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:53 PM   #20
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

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Well, yeah, I'm just curious how much people think he would need to not effectively treat him as all-in and call any river.
Maybe if he had $2K to start? If I covered PRE and just flatted the turn he'd have $1100+ to ship on a river into a $2K pot, so I don't think it'd be a "call any river" scenario then it would be very read/hand-history based.

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Originally Posted by dropnloads View Post
Your weird Fold makes sense now.

Maybe this should be a discussion on when to get up from Poker Table. When does a marathon session start impacting EV.

Everything before the fold was fine IMO. Maybe the life lesson here is setting limits on yourself so as to always play optimally in top mental condition.
You are too spot on! It was super-late (2AM), had been playing for like 5+ hours and was running on straight caffeine remnants.

I don't think I would've folded if I wasn't tired, but as I said I don't want to make excuses I just want to better understand how to have properly played the hand on the flop and on a different turn (as I well know folding turn was terrible, trying to gain further insight then that at this point).

Anyone have thoughts on what to do if turn is 10/J/Q of and it goes bet-raise in front of me?
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:35 PM   #21
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

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Anyone have thoughts on what to do if turn is 10/J/Q of and it goes bet-raise in front of me?
Go all in.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:26 AM   #22
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

I mean mathematically calling always has to be at least break-eveb here right? Didnt bother running any sims because it seems so obvious. In theory hero could maybe fold if he knows he will eat another full pot sized bet or more after calling the initial 1/2 psb but in this case, hero is not deep enough to explore that scenario.
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Old 03-20-2019, 02:50 AM   #23
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

Quote:
In theory hero could maybe fold if he knows he will eat another full pot sized bet or more after calling the initial 1/2 psb but in this case,
no u would be fine calling off 2800 more for an expected loss on the side pot of 280, because your expected gain from the main pot would be more than that getting
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:50 PM   #24
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

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Originally Posted by SocraticGambler View Post

If they go ahead on the turn with the 5 then I wouldn't get paid on the river if I flat and the flush or full-house hit so I'd have to stack off on the turn to get max-value in a multi-way pot (especially since theoretically two could have A4xx or 64xx, either combo).



Will post results shortly, thanks for the thoughts.

In this spot you donít need to hit and be paid off for the call to be profitable. Youíre practically getting direct pot odds for the call and anyone else coming in behind you is just added gravy




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Old 03-21-2019, 04:00 AM   #25
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Re: 5/5 PLO - Sick Turn w/Top Set+NFD Multi-Way Action

depending on how you are rolled for the game long term, if no issue there, raise the damn thing. Your hand can take ANY pressure, many of their's can't. Might get a wheel to fold, little club draw to fold, if trips or two pair hands with little diamond draws want in ... great. I can't stomach call then folding river with the hand.
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