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Old 03-12-2018, 01:41 PM   #1
dc-ohio
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5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

We are in an unraised pot in the big blind with:

QcJc9d4d

6 way limped pot to us, so we check our BB. (effective stacks are 1k)

Flop ($30) Js7c4h

SB checks, we bet $25, MP (loose, but usually raises big draws and made hands) calls, SB (absolute maniac any 4 cards) calls

Turn ($105) Qs

I check (?) MP bets 100, SB calls 100, I raise to $425. MP tanks and calls, SB folds

River ($1055) 7s

I shove for 550, MP folds

What is your opinion on the turn X/R?
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Old 03-12-2018, 03:18 PM   #2
Javanewt
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

I'm fine with the turn check/raise. So unlikely either has a set, and that's really all you are worried about. Makes it way more expensive for them to continue with their draws.
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:07 PM   #3
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

I would usually just lead turn, but checking to check raise has merit.

I hate the river shove though. Really bad IMO. Think it's very hard for us to get value from worse (does AQ call?) and definitely not folding out 7x. Easy for V to have a 7, hands like 567, T987, J7, 74, etc. All his 7s snap call us given we only have a 1/2 pot bet left, as do his runner runner flushes. Much better to check here, and check/call if you think MP is capable of bluffing or check/fold if you think he isn't. I'm generally check/calling in a vacuum.
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:51 PM   #4
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

I don't like it very much stacks are awkward on the river when a drawing hand calls, maybe it can fold out same 2p or a weak set (not that likely on this texture imo)
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:02 PM   #5
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

Don’t like checking turn as it can easily get checked through. Bet flop bet turn


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Old 03-12-2018, 09:50 PM   #6
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

On turn you have 9 cards max which are good for you,110bb

behind,and you are oop against 2 opponents,from which one is absolute maniac

I would really not be happy with the check raise.On river you were definitely

bluffing,it is out of question that AQ can call.But the problem is when you

have left only 1/2pot size bet are you really confident opponent can fold a

flush or trips?
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:35 AM   #7
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

I'd just lead the turn and check/decide on most rivers.

Stack depths make the x/r super awkward when called, and there aren't many safe river cards for us so we're putting ourselves in a really tough spot way too often. If we could gii with the x/r then I'd like it.

As played the river shove is bad. What was the thought here? He's never calling with worse, and probably not folding much that's better.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:27 PM   #8
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

Turn check raise is fine if MP is prone to bet too often when checked to.

If MP thinks you almost always have QQxx or JJxx and his likely hand is a straight draw that picked up a weak flush draw on the turn or something like KKxx with spades, then the river shove is good.

If you knew he had A654, do you bet the river?
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:21 AM   #9
dc-ohio
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

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Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
Turn check raise is fine if MP is prone to bet too often when checked to.

If MP thinks you almost always have QQxx or JJxx and his likely hand is a straight draw that picked up a weak flush draw on the turn or something like KKxx with spades, then the river shove is good.

If you knew he had A654, do you bet the river?
If that hand was face up, yes I'd bet the river. He's not calling with a weak flush on that board.

I talked to him after the session, and he claimed he turned queens and fours. I'm not sure what hand he limped that includes Q4xx, maybe something like Q654 on that board?
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:48 PM   #10
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

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If that hand was face up, yes I'd bet the river. He's not calling with a weak flush on that board.

I talked to him after the session, and he claimed he turned queens and fours. I'm not sure what hand he limped that includes Q4xx, maybe something like Q654 on that board?
Really? If that's your read I obviously can't disagree as I don't know the V, but I would not expect many Vs to fold a runner-runner low flush to a single 1/2 PSB shove even when board pairs.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:54 PM   #11
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

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Really? If that's your read I obviously can't disagree as I don't know the V, but I would not expect many Vs to fold a runner-runner low flush to a single 1/2 PSB shove even when board pairs.
It's more my perceived image. I've been known to be nitty in this game in most lineups. I'll pick some spots to make moves though, and this felt like a good one to rep a set/rivered boat with.
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:24 PM   #12
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

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Really? If that's your read I obviously can't disagree as I don't know the V, but I would not expect many Vs to fold a runner-runner low flush to a single 1/2 PSB shove even when board pairs.
I'm used to playing against lineups where at least half the table would fold 44xx on this river against me, assuming they made it that far.

If I had $4000 behind, half-pot is probably still what I would usually bet, both for value if I had a full house and as a bluff if I don't.
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Old 03-14-2018, 11:34 PM   #13
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

44 is shoving the turn if he's calling
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:35 AM   #14
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

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44 is shoving the turn if he's calling
We clearly play against different player pools. Mine often results in a table that doesn't 3bet pre very often. I have a tight image, so if I were to check raise the turn and shove this river, my usual reg opponents will think my range looks something like QQ/JJ/77. Arguably, for my particular situation, I should check JJ to induce a bet.

This feels like a hand where the most exploitative play probably varies with respect to table image.
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:19 PM   #15
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

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Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
We clearly play against different player pools. Mine often results in a table that doesn't 3bet pre very often. I have a tight image, so if I were to check raise the turn and shove this river, my usual reg opponents will think my range looks something like QQ/JJ/77. Arguably, for my particular situation, I should check JJ to induce a bet.

This feels like a hand where the most exploitative play probably varies with respect to table image.
we definitely play in different pools.
consisdering the spr almost nobody i ever play is just flatting bottom set on the turn.there is no card other than quadding, maybe a 7 and an offsuit 2 he likes on the river (there are a few others that aren't terrible). i lot of river cards either beat you or kill your action when ahead. flatting 44 is pretty horrible actually for a lot of reasons.

not 3 betting often (common at most tables are play) is a totally different thing.

now super deep i'll see people flat 44 here all day long.
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:37 PM   #16
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Re: 5/5 PLO flopped top/bottom, turn top 2 pair

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Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
we definitely play in different pools.
consisdering the spr almost nobody i ever play is just flatting bottom set on the turn.there is no card other than quadding, maybe a 7 and an offsuit 2 he likes on the river (there are a few others that aren't terrible). i lot of river cards either beat you or kill your action when ahead. flatting 44 is pretty horrible actually for a lot of reasons.
I agree flatting is pretty horrible. I play against a lot of opponents who don't think ahead and don't anticipate the betting on future streets. Sometimes, I might even be the only player at the table who knows what spr is. They also might have bottom set plus a draw and are mainly playing the draw, while thinking their set might be good if it gets checked through on the river. (They would usually check behind on this board.)

Sometimes, I have a table where they never have 44 because it would have been raised on the flop.

Most players, when they don't fold to a check-raise but don't shove, that means they have outs against a set. They called a bet on the flop, so most likely they flopped two pair or a straight draw and picked up a flush draw on the turn. They might have a jack and at least two overs to the 7. If they tend to be passive, they most likely need a made hand to bet the turn. A lot of players will take the free card with a draw.

So, when the check-raise gets called, the boats in his range are probably J7 and Q7 (with hands like QT97 or Q765).

So, my final analysis is going to be: bet the river if they can fold a flush on a paired board, check if they can't, and if you don't know what they will do, you probably shouldn't have check-raised the turn.

I'm nitty enough I probably would have check-folded the flop unless the bettor seemed weak. If checked through on the flop, I would have potted the turn.
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