NLHE player here. I have no idea wtf I'm doing in this game, but the action looked good so I hopped in when a table opened.

I bought in for $1500. Main Villain V1 is a fishy NLHE player who is the reason I switched to this game from 2/5 NL. He seems more competent and cautious at PLO than I expected, which is a disappointment. Villain has $2k. Second Villain V2 is a rich businessman type who also has $2k.

V2 raises to $15, Hero calls with JTT9, V1 3b to $70, V2 calls, Hero calls.

3ways to the flop of K 87 ($220)

Check, check, V1 bets $125, V2 calls, Hero?

We have ~$1400 behind and are a 52/48 equity favorite against KKxx (no diamonds). What's our plan for flop? What's our plan across blank turns?

Flop is just a call. Not strong enough and slightly too deep to just gii. Fd likely to be dead 3 ways.

Flop is mostly a flat here, but against described (weaker) villains, potting tends to be a bit better than it would otherwise.. heros fold equity is normally pretty good

Less than pot might also increase fold equity for hero on turn.

i'd pot against this pussy ass sizing

You should also probably buy in for less if you aren't comfortable in plo

Against fishy NLHE player who is probably cbetting too much we should raise, but we are not thrilled if we have to get it in.

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Did you bother to look at other scenarios, like if you are against aces with the nut flush draw? V1 is playing more cautious than you expected and 3bet pre, so it is possible that his range is heavily weighted towards AAxx hands.

Hero raises to $400

I'll post results now:

Truth be told, I thought that V1 had started the hand with 900ish, as I didn't notice a large 1k chip at the bottom of his stack (it's my first time at Parx, so I didn't recognize the oversized chip).

Therefore I decided to pot it to 700 to put pressure on V1, thinking that V2 likely had a naked NFD or wrap which I needed to fold out, and I could could get it in with V1 if he is just overplaying AA. Well, V1 called quickly, and V2 tanked and tanked and almost called, but then thought better of it and folded.

The turn was an offsuit A. I decided I now had zero fold equity and checked.

Villain checked back.

The river was the Q. I bet $300 with $400 back, intending to fold to a raise, and Villain just folded -- he claimed he had KKxx, which surprised me. I thought he might have just gotten it in on the flop with top set.

Wat? I don't see villain checking back KKxx or Axxx with the nut flush draw on the turn.

Yeah villain is a weak liar.

Flatting the nuts for 60% of his stack to check check fold.

Why wouldn't he check back Axxx on the turn if he puts me on a set, and figures, like me, he has no fold equity?

If everyone knows there is no fold equity, then he would assume you shove your set.

He's a fish so it's hard to tell what he'd assume. Perhaps he has a draw and he thinks I put him on AAxx and I am slowing down when I no longer have the top set?

As for the river bet/fold, I felt that a cautious fishy player isn't going to try to run a bluff when I'm getting 6:1 on a call on the river. He probably has no idea that my small bet-sizing means I don't hold the nut flush. From watching this guy play a few NLHE hands timidly, I doubt he is courageous enough to run a bluff with the A blocker when I'm getting 6:1 on a call. I also felt that a small blocker bet might get a crying call from a set.

Would you have advocated just jamming or checking the river instead of going for a small value bet?

He told me that he learned his lesson from before and now plays the nuts with top set more carefully, waiting for a blank to peel on the turn. This might even be the correct play with KKxx if he puts me on a monster draw?

Maybe he checked back the turn because the pot was getting too big and he forgot about potential draws and became worried I might have AAxx? That's something a cautious fishy player might do (on each street, worry about a different class of hands).

What do you think he had that folds the river for a small bet? Middle set or flopped two pair? A lower wrap with no fd? Most of those hands are not consistent with his preflop 3b, so I tend to believe he actually had KKxx.

If they tell you what they had without showing their cards, they're lying.
OTTH, pot turn. There is some fold equity, and you're not dead against any hand.

At which point did you play your hand like AA?
I also agree with others that think he lied about having KK and checking back turn.

From a purely logical standpoint, if he's risk averse and if he knows he's a 60-40 favorite on the turn at best (that's a big if) then he may be incentivized to sacrifice some EV to reduce variance and check back turn. My hand is actually 50-50 against KKxx (no diamond), so if he had that and knew my range consisted basically of 20 out draws, checking turn is the right play. I don't believe those thoughts crossed his mind in such detail, but it's possible he knows that top set isn't infallible like it would be in NLHE. Or he definitely could have lied, though I still struggle to see which hands in his preflop 3bet range would play this way except a very cautious AA or KK.

villian didn't have kk and checking turn with a set of kings for any reason you just mentioned is utterly atrocious

Your hand is also not 50-50 against KK on the turn
Even If he has no diamond or 67910j he's still 57.5 percent

Omaha Hi Simulation ?
100,040 trials (Exhaustive)
board: Kd8d7sAc
Hand Equity Wins Ties
KK 53.01% 52,908 252
JcTdTs9d 46.99% 46,880 252

I'm not surprised you got a fold from KKxx being held by a NL Player. I see it plenty. They come to PLO with all the talk and start to see all the hands that can beat them ... even if the River wasn't a diamond they'll see the JT come home (high end Flop wrap) and assume you runnered Broadway.

I'm not so sure we don't just pot the Turn. Even against AA or KK we have plenty of room for improvement. When we start to worry about an opponent having us beat AND having all our draws covered then we might as well go back to NL. GL

He didn't have KK so we can forget about that part of the story

https://imgur.com/a/jf3NaBe

i think check potting this flop 3ways reeks of kk and 88 so i don't mind it with jtt9 and diamond blockers. I also like leading for pot or near pot here with kk, 88 and 77 and wrap+fd hands. I think it's bad when you spank a flop like this and let it get checked thru. I imagine the IP player is checking back a fair amount of the time.

although we are a big dog to nfd+ and nfd w/ aces, we're only facing a half pot cbet and a call. i think it's too early to start being afraid of the boogyman. I think you try to take it down now since you will play your kk and 88 and maybe nfd+ similarly.

naked nfd has 50% equity vs us
nfd+ is biggest fear w/ about 2:1 edge minimum.

Im curious why people advocate a call OTF. I guess you're only comfortable leading when non-diamond wrap fills on turn. I think you have to check fold every turned diamond and brick.

As played on river i think you have bluff catcher at best and should check.

I would just call the flop. But in plo these low suited flush draws are usually worthless multi way. Someone will have higher flush draw usually. I would call here but not fist pumping if i hit a flush on the turn. If you hit your flush and someone bets in multi way pot on the turn its a fold.