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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 07-18-2015, 02:48 PM   #1
braavosiman
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[5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

This is a very loose and moderately aggressive 5-5 game. I'm 460 deep, and I have a tight-aggressive image.

I open for 15 in early/middle position with KdJs9d8d. Fish call in the CO, BTN, SB, and BB.

Td7s3d

The SB instantly bets pot (75). He hasn't been incredibly aggressive, but he hasn't been too passive either. He can't get away from hands like small sets and small full houses when there's a lot of action in front of him. For what it's worth, he said he was willing to play for 350-400 stacks with weak double-suited kings when I considered 4-betting him pre-flop an hour ago. I don't think it was a passive-aggressive comment; I do believe he was happy to gamble.

I call.

6d

He instantly bets pot (225). He covers me, and I have 225+145 left.

Hero?
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Old 07-18-2015, 04:42 PM   #2
Ilike4cards
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

One might think he is talking about 460bb and it gets somehow interesting but at the end you find out it is $.
Also what a degen the other guy is gambling 350$ with double suited kings.
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Old 07-18-2015, 09:11 PM   #3
borg23
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

raise the flop
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Old 07-18-2015, 09:24 PM   #4
lvanhoe
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

gii otf

as played gii ott

why are you posting this fk im drunk
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Old 07-19-2015, 01:15 AM   #5
braavosiman
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

I'm relatively inexperienced, but I also don't think this is a clear situation to play for stacks in soft live games with mostly fish, 5-way flops, and Axxxs never folding pre-flop by anyone in any position.

I don't raise the flop because I'm two bets behind with position, allowing me to play a turn and river against a weaker opponent, and I might not be a favorite against his lead/3-shove range. I also want to encourage other fish to come along with weaker draws.

If we were 200 shallower, it's clear we should snap him off on the turn or just rip the flop.

If we were 200 deeper, I think the correct play is to call the turn and reasses the river.

With a 400-500 stack I really struggle with a decision on the turn.
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Old 07-19-2015, 04:30 AM   #6
borg23
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

the flop is a no brainer raise. you're not even deep.
if you're scared to raise the flop fold the hand preflop.this is a dream flop especially at your stack size.
you say you have a tight agressive image which absolutely can not be a true statement if you're scared to rip it on this flop.

axs doesn't have to be dealt to anyone,if you call you insure they're calling if it was, if you raise you often knock them out freeing up all your outs.you have 2 pair smashed, you have all non nut flush/straight draws dominated.
worst case scenario- someone has top set, another guy has the nut flush draw with blockers to your straight and you have about 33% equity 3 ways.heads up vs top pair nfd you're 46%.stop playing weak tight and telling yourself you're playing tight aggressive.

Last edited by borg23; 07-19-2015 at 04:36 AM.
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Old 07-19-2015, 10:43 AM   #7
braavosiman
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

Most players don't lead two pair into the pre-flop raiser in these soft games. Additionally, there are still two decisions left for two pair to make a mistake.

Regarding the CO and BTN, they're never folding the nut flush draw anyway to a bet and a raise; however, they would fold weak naked flush draws and straight draws that they would've called for just one bet.

I really don't see how raising the flop is more profitable than calling. I don't see it at all.

Did Phil Ivey make a mistake when he just called in position with his nut wrap plus third nut flush draw with three of that suit in his hand on the flop against a mere continuation bet from Brian Hastings? Call him weak tight then.

Last edited by braavosiman; 07-19-2015 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 07-19-2015, 12:45 PM   #8
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

Everything borg said...jesus
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Old 07-20-2015, 05:34 PM   #9
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

lol so now you're comparing this hand to a hand ivey plays deeper for much bigger stakes that was 6 max not 9 max against world class players?
that's absolutely hilarious.

you are weak tight. a tight agressive player raises this flop in this game 10000000000% of the time.i guarantee nobody in this game things you're agressive-they surely view you as a passive nut peddler. you're also wrong for just assuming people with 15 in the pot are cold calling 300 with just the nfd. you're also wrong for assuming the nfd is always out.if they do have the nfd you can free up a lot of your outs by raising.

you made this hand difficult with your awful flop play.
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Old 07-20-2015, 06:25 PM   #10
smoothcriminal99
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

I think any1 who considers themselves a TAG and doesn't raise this flop doesn't truly understand the classifications. Also your pretty shallow so I don't really know what else u can do cept GII w/ how the hand was played. If ur going to come here and not listen to people who suggest the obvious (flop is a raise) idk what the point of posting is.

reasons raising flop is better than flatting
1. people won't overcall w/ same wraps/NFD all the time that decrease your equity and increase your opponents
2. Fold equity
3. get value when you hit instead of opponent c/f when you do.
4. won't get into tough situations OTT where u can missplay.

there really are very few benefits of flatting flop.

1. Might keep in worse FDs (I doubt that in 9handed plo)
2. get to fold on paired boarded turns vs FHs

Last edited by smoothcriminal99; 07-20-2015 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 07-20-2015, 10:58 PM   #11
kutty2
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

I'm genuinely curious what villains tend to have in spots like this. OP please post results if you got em
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Old 07-21-2015, 04:24 AM   #12
sauhund
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

whatīs up with all those talks about agressive, passive, images etc...
this is a live plo game, 92bb deep. no one cares about images...
gii on flop as borg said, itīs a no brainer.
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Old 07-21-2015, 08:41 AM   #13
mastermyself
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

you flat flop to see a non-paired out and you got it, so gii.

If you are a nut paddler then fold k suit hands. One way or the other.
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Old 07-27-2015, 11:34 PM   #14
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

Go for the straight flush.
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Old 07-28-2015, 09:04 AM   #15
borg23
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by sauhund View Post
whatīs up with all those talks about agressive, passive, images etc...
this is a live plo game, 92bb deep. no one cares about images...
gii on flop as borg said, itīs a no brainer.
this is mostly true- i just found it extremely funny the op had the audacity to refer to himself as a tag when he's a passive weak tight nit
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Old 07-28-2015, 03:45 PM   #16
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
this is mostly true- i just found it extremely funny the op had the audacity to refer to himself as a tag when he's a passive weak tight nit
i donīt disagree with that
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Old 07-28-2015, 06:00 PM   #17
illdonk
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

I resent that. I'm a passive weak tight nit and even I don't hesitate to get the money in with this hand on that board against this opponent.
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Old 07-28-2015, 07:41 PM   #18
Poker Playz
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

What hands are we expecting villain to fold to a flop raise?
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Old 07-31-2015, 02:34 PM   #19
braavosiman
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

I shoved the turn and was snapped-off by AdT7dx.

You're wrong to think fish in loose live games usually won't overcall single bets with weak naked straight and flush draws on the flop.

You're wrong to think fish in loose live games usually will fold the naked nut flush when facing a bet and a raise cold on the flop.

You're wrong to think fish in loose live games usually will lead for a pot-sized bet into the pre-flop raiser in a multi-way pot with anything less than top two on this flop.

Your one-dimensional and persistent trolling fails to take these facts into consideration.
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Old 07-31-2015, 03:28 PM   #20
sauhund
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

youīre wrong about not shoving the flop tho...
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Old 07-31-2015, 05:44 PM   #21
illdonk
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

You describe the opponent as a "happy to gamble" fish who isn't afraid to put money in with less than the nuts, even when faced with a lot of action, and then act like everybody else is crazy for not finding a way to get away from a massive drawing flop and turning the second nuts with semi-shallow stacks.

If you honestly believe that he wouldn't bet out with less than the nuts, despite your description, then fold.

Last edited by illdonk; 07-31-2015 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 07-31-2015, 08:23 PM   #22
borg23
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

you're wrong thinking you're a tag.

you're wrong thinking you're good at plo.

you're wrong not to raise the flop.

i wasn't remotely trolling you.not raising the flop is awful.
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Old 08-01-2015, 12:06 PM   #23
braavosiman
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

I did mention he hadn't been incredibly aggressive. I feel like it's slightly more correct to call on the flop than to raise because we have to hit or get lucky in a few situations where we can bluff the turn or river to win. We have near-zero fold equity against him and anyone who might hold the nut flush draw on the flop, and I think we're slightly behind his range of top two pair, sets, good wraps plus flush draw, and nut flush draws, so I'd prefer to just extract value from weaker draws in others' hands.

Are my descriptions of these fish and their betting, calling, and folding ranges in this situation not of typical fish in loose live games? I'm not trying to be a djck, but it's not a heads-up or three-way hand online, so doesn't it make more sense to call on the flop in this situation? Raising is obviously the profitable "standard" play for our hand on these boards, I just think here specifically we get at least slightly more value from calling.

Last edited by braavosiman; 08-01-2015 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 08-01-2015, 12:09 PM   #24
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by braavosiman View Post
I did mention he hadn't been incredibly aggressive. I feel like it's slightly more correct to call on the flop than to raise because we have to hit or get lucky in a few situations where we can bluff the turn or river to win. We have near-zero fold equity against him and anyone who might hold the nut flush draw on the flop, and I think we're slightly behind his range of top two pair, sets, good wraps plus flush draw, and nut flush draws, so I'd prefer to just extract value from weaker draws on others' hands.

Are my descriptions of these fish and their betting, calling, and folding ranges in this situation not of typical fish in loose live games? I'm not trying to be a djck, but it's not a heads-up or three-way hand, so doesn't it make more sense to call on the flop in this situation? Raising is obviously the profitable "standard" play for our hand on these boards, I just think here specifically we get at least slightly more value from calling.
What situations are you gonna bluff? Every bluff card hits your hand.
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Old 08-01-2015, 12:42 PM   #25
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Re: [5-5] K-high flush against a fish, semi-shallow stacks

If he checks on a turn T, 7, 5, 4, and 3, we can bet (we still have two bets left if we size correctly). It won't happen often, but that's slightly more value for us in position on later streets versus getting the money in possibly a little behind on the flop.
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