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5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? 5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways?

07-11-2019 , 04:05 PM
Playing $5/$5 PLO/BIG O Mix Game, action has been great because of a couple guys that are drunk and making the table lively (one of them cashed in the tourney early that night).

We are playing 5-handed because two of them went to the bar (and another guy got up):

Villian 1 (STRADDLE) - $600 (seems to be amateur but not afraid to gamble; don't think he's that experienced or solid, seems to be the worst player at the table)
Villain 2 (CO) - $1500 (incredibly solid player, very aggressive, not sure if he's a pro but is at worst a semi-pro)
Hero (BUTTON) - $1,000 (in for $600, running hot then cold then ok, so pretty happy with where I was at on the night after 4 hours of play)

CO limps, I look down at Q10105 and decide to button limp (would typically fold this if it was full-ring or if the drunk guys were there because they are playing super-aggressive).

SB Folds, BB Folds, Straddle checks and we see a flop (pot is $40)

1087

Straddle leads for $20, CO calls, I call (pot is now $100) - turn:

J

Straddle leads $60, CO calls, I call (pot is now $280) - river:

7

Straddle leads for $150, CO hems and haws for a minute before begrudgingly calling (looks disgusted).

Action is on me, $150 to call into a pot of almost $600 - is there any chance I'm good based on this action?
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-11-2019 , 04:22 PM
If CO is solid think he's giving up a lot of 88/77 on turn - good chance he has nut flush with the tank call also. Definitely calling as JJ shouldn't be in straddle's lead range and co never just flats Js full on river so you only lose to 2 straight flush combos.

I'm raising small here especially if straddle is a spewy rec who probably over values hands.
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-12-2019 , 03:40 AM
If it's correct to even think about folding here I have no idea how to play poker
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-12-2019 , 07:00 AM
Am I missing something? Raise, you nit.

Or at worst, it's a missed deal because of the two ten of clubs.
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-12-2019 , 03:51 PM
River is obviously at least a call. I dont think worse calls a raise that often, and am ok with a conservative call.
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-12-2019 , 04:42 PM
I can't imagine ever folding here. I don't think you need to raise, but folding is obscene.
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-13-2019 , 03:35 PM
You are good like 90% of the time
Do with that as you may
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-13-2019 , 09:29 PM
Crushed multiple ways? wat?
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-14-2019 , 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerdantDevil
Am I missing something? Raise, you nit.

Or at worst, it's a missed deal because of the two ten of clubs.
Haha nice catch - it must've been 10 and I had 5 then (I know I had one club).
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-14-2019 , 11:00 AM
So here was my thinking on this hand:

I flop top set in position and have a bet+call in front of me on a made flush/straight board - I want to keep both players in and control pot so I can fill up and get max value.

However, on the river I need to think about hand ranges; i.e. what hand can the straddle lead 3 streets with into multiple callers?

-Nut Flush
-Straight Flush
-Set

That's literally it - he's not going to barrel the turn after he gets called in two spots without one of those hands, it just doesn't make sense otherwise (weak-flush checks the turn, flopped straight checks the turn, even bottom set IMO would check turn so could control pot and make sure they don't get raised).

Additionally, what hand can the CO call on the river with after the straddle leads and I'm behind to act? He must be very strong since by calling he must be fairly confident I'm not going to raise him, otherwise wouldn't he put in a raise himself to get max value?

Spoiler:
In my best case scenario I felt the Straddle has the nut-flush draw and the CO has an under boat (i.e. 77 or 88), so for getting the price I was getting I did call.

Straddle shows J9 of Clubs for flopped straight-flush and CO shows JJ for rivered boat larger then mine. I win bronze medal

I still think it's a call because of the sizing and the potential that I'm against a nut-flush and underboat, but it has to literally be that perfect scenario. In actuality I only have the 4th nuts and it has gone bet-call on 3 streets so it seems incredibly thin to raise here - nut-flush draw should fold every time but would only be getting value from 88 and it's tough to put someone on that specific hand.
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-14-2019 , 11:30 AM
What? This is a snap-jam for me. V has no reason to stop value betting any set. The only way you're behind is if he has something like AJJx with nut clubs. You can't be afraid when you're only behind 3 combos. CO almost certainly has a flush and straddle can have 87, 88, J7.
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-14-2019 , 01:57 PM
-I'm raising small here especially if straddle is a spewy rec who probably over values hands.
-Am I missing something? Raise, you nit.
-What? This is a snap-jam for me.


Really surprising so many people are advocating to raise the river. I think the decision is clear call or fold and it leans towards call based on the action/pot-size/stakes, but a raise seems reckless without reads or prior hand-history (i.e. knowing that the straddle will call off with a nut-flush on a paired board with multiple callers on all 3 streets when he is leading).

If I raise that river the only hand that can call me which I beat is 88 (maybe Ace-high flush if the Straddle has a massive leak or something weird like 7-8-9-J where they flopped the joint + two pair and just kept betting because no one ever raised). I thought it was possible that CO had 88 (since would've raised 77 or a straight-flush on the river), so like I said best-case scenario is that Straddle has Ace-high flush and CO has 88, which seemed possible but unlikely.
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-14-2019 , 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SocraticGambler
I think the decision is clear call or fold and it leans towards call based on the action/pot-size/stakes
No, it's just a really really clear call. Fold is not even close to an option.
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-14-2019 , 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkypete
No, it's just a really really clear call. Fold is not even close to an option.
What range do you put on a player like Straddle leading all 3 streets with 2 callers behind?

What range do you put on a player like CO calling all 3 streets with me to act behind on the river?

I get that this is supposed to be call vast majority of the time but is it really "never" a fold because I'm just getting too good a price at 4:1 and my perceived equity is better then 25%?
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-14-2019 , 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SocraticGambler
What range do you put on a player like Straddle leading all 3 streets with 2 callers behind?

What range do you put on a player like CO calling all 3 streets with me to act behind on the river?
I put both of them on a range of nuts or not nuts
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-15-2019 , 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkypete
I put both of them on a range of nuts or not nuts
Amazing reads
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-16-2019 , 11:48 AM
1) Never folding getting 4 to 1 here ... 20% win needed

2) Whose calling if you raise/pot on this board? Only hands that beat you or possible V1 doesn't understand River betting in PLO AND has nut flush.

3) What does the hem/haw from CO mean? He can't possibly put V1 on a straight flush here, nor does he really care if hes' reg/pro. (It's part of the game) He may think V1 has quads also ... or is he trying to bait you into a call since V1 will probably fold to a raise? It's very possible that he has nut flush and doesn't like the board pairing with you behind. Regardless he's not calling a raise unless you're beat.

Obviously the strength of V2 and H hands is well under-repped here, but is that a reason to go nuts on the River? I don't think so ... I might raise a bit hoping that V2 folds, but is it worth it? Just take the win if it's there and call ... GL
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-18-2019 , 05:10 PM
honestly you can fold this hand on any street before the river. on the flop you have only seven outs. with the straight flush out there your implied odds aren't that great also because you have to stop raising pretty early (we don't even raise at all once we fill up). on the turn you pick up some more outs, but they are to the underfull. preflop is just awful, everything about this hand spells second best.
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote
07-18-2019 , 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble
honestly you can fold this hand on any street before the river. on the flop you have only seven outs. with the straight flush out there your implied odds aren't that great also because you have to stop raising pretty early (we don't even raise at all once we fill up). on the turn you pick up some more outs, but they are to the underfull. preflop is just awful, everything about this hand spells second best.
Nope
5/5/10 Flop Top Set, River A Boat, Am I Crushed Multiple Ways? Quote

      
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