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Old 08-12-2018, 07:27 PM   #1
halperin
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5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

200 deep with main villian. 100 is other

raised UTG tt22dd

2 calls both have position on me.

flop t83ddc - i cbet close to pot, both call

turn Ac - is this a lead or check

leading seems like i will get called a lot with a ton of rivers ill be check folding potentially the best hand. checking thru does give them the free card but keeps the pot small with a ton of bad rivers for me. also gives them the chance to bet where happily jam.

also, is this supposed to be raised utg?
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Old 08-12-2018, 09:01 PM   #2
borg23
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

this hand is garbage pre especially utg
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Old 08-12-2018, 10:35 PM   #3
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

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Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
this hand is garbage pre especially utg
It's an open pre (solver approved).

POT turn.
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Old 08-13-2018, 04:11 PM   #4
SolarAU
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

In a 3 way pot betting is going to show the most profit because it's very hard to expect either villain to start stabbing super wide when they have 2 opponents to worry about so you won't be able to get your dream scenario turn X/r in often enough.

When called turn you will have to play a lot of awkward rivers OOP but it's less of a disaster than letting it check through and letting both villains realise their equity for free
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:16 PM   #5
halperin
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

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Originally Posted by SolarAU View Post
In a 3 way pot betting is going to show the most profit because it's very hard to expect either villain to start stabbing super wide when they have 2 opponents to worry about so you won't be able to get your dream scenario turn X/r in often enough.

When called turn you will have to play a lot of awkward rivers OOP but it's less of a disaster than letting it check through and letting both villains realise their equity for free

i guess to me it seemed like more of a disaster to bet >50 bbs here with a very high chance of getting called in position by 1 or 2 opponents, 1 which was 200 deep to start the hand with me, and then having to make a super tough decision on almost every river in the deck
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Old 08-13-2018, 08:51 PM   #6
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

Fear of your opponent getting there on the river or at least having a tough river to play isnt a good justification to not bet.
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:02 AM   #7
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

fun fact :

aside from the board pairing (and even then the ace is scary), there are no safe river cards on this board. Everything else completes either a straight or a flush.
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:17 AM   #8
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
fun fact :

aside from the board pairing (and even then the ace is scary), there are no safe river cards on this board. Everything else completes either a straight or a flush.


Yes. playing a small medium pp with only a set mining value oop is very tricky in most situations. This hand pre is smelly stinky garbage oop. 99 and TT as set miners are the most overplayed hands and in my experience the biggest mistakes are made with these hands. A 9 or T on any given flop connects with so many other cards thatís itís difficult to have visibility. when you flop bottom set youíre pretty much always behind against anyone that continues against your betting.
Hero hit a semi dream flop and is unsure as how to maximize gain yet minimize losses. Hence the problem with this hand oop. Position is the absolute nuts in this situation.


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Old 08-14-2018, 12:04 PM   #9
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

Pot turn, jam any non-club 2,4,5,K or any A,T,8,3. Check/fold any Q,J,9,7,6, diamond vs main villain.
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Old 08-14-2018, 04:48 PM   #10
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

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Originally Posted by lsdeee View Post
It's an open pre (solver approved).

POT turn.
where are you getting this?

It seems reasonable to fold this hand pre UTG when stacks are 200BB deep. It will flop top set with no possible straight only 4% of the time. If i can get low spr situations maybe more willing to play this since shoving middle and bottom set on flop is an option.

As played, you are barely a favorite against 2 decent draws and a significant favorite against a lower set and a draw. I'm thinking go for a check-raise and hope to trap a middle set or a float..
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:18 PM   #11
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

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Originally Posted by festivegorgon View Post

As played, you are barely a favorite against 2 decent draws and a significant favorite against a lower set and a draw. I'm thinking go for a check-raise and hope to trap a middle set or a float..
Ty for letting me see a free card with my J97dd and my 976dd
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:45 PM   #12
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

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Originally Posted by VerdantDevil View Post
Ty for letting me see a free card with my J97dd and my 976dd
is it a free card if we are nearly exactly even against jd97d?
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:13 AM   #13
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

Yes, because J97, 976 no diamond, Adxd, T8,88,33 are also in flop calling range, and compared to this range we crush.
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:09 AM   #14
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

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Originally Posted by VerdantDevil View Post
Yes, because J97, 976 no diamond, Adxd, T8,88,33 are also in flop calling range, and compared to this range we crush.
But against 2 drawing hands.. we really aren't that far ahead.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: t83a
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
TTd2d239.55% 237,3270
J9733.37% 196,7506,935
Add27.08% 158,9886,935

I think in a live situation I am potting if if I find myself in this spot. I might start considering check-raises when I am in this exact situation situation. The idea being if t8,33,88 feels obliged to prevent free cards themselves we get to check-raise all in when we are way ahead and we play a small pot when we are slightly ahead.

Last edited by festivegorgon; 08-15-2018 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:53 PM   #15
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

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Originally Posted by festivegorgon View Post
I think in a live situation I am potting if if I find myself in this spot. I might start considering check-raises when I am in this exact situation situation. The idea being if t8,33,88 feels obliged to prevent free cards themselves we get to check-raise all in when we are way ahead and we play a small pot when we are slightly ahead.
If you play against villains who will pot 33,88,T8 here, then that play does seem like a good line.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:33 PM   #16
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

I like check, villains should stab a lot here not expecting to be xred.

And yes pre seems bad, I'd love to see a solver prove it is correct
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:37 PM   #17
halperin
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

for me its not even that i think there is a high chance of them betting. i just think id be check folding on almost any river vs potentially 2 opponents and that keeping the pot smaller was not a bad thing. i understand not betting to avoid a tough decision how you should play but in this case it seems more like a complete guessing game rather than a tough decision once the majority of rivers hit. also it doesnt look like im even pushing much equity here vs 2 opponents.

i do think now that raising this utg (6max) is not good.
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Old 08-18-2018, 12:00 AM   #18
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
I like check, villains should stab a lot here not expecting to be xred.

And yes pre seems bad, I'd love to see a solver prove it is correct
Monker solver
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Old 08-18-2018, 08:51 AM   #19
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

Ilari FIN would open this hand
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Old 09-01-2018, 01:13 PM   #20
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

My apologies for not being able to find the exact details on the relevant hand, but I will give you the gist of a hand between Galfond and Negreanu that I believe will help frame your question better and why a check raise is superior.
Galfond raised cutoff with KKQ7ss, negreanu called btn with 89TJss. Hu to flop. Flop was KJ8dd, neither player has fd. Galfond leads, negreanu calls, turn 3s, no bdnfd. Galfond CHECKS.
Itís in one of the YouTube videos out there and he explained his line of thought that there was about 4spr behind on turn. If he leads, even pot, and is called then he is seeing river oop with an spr between 1-2, and any 7, 9, T, Q, A, or non pairing diamond has him having to check decide and pray he makes the right decision. Instead he can either check jam and deny equity or gii, if negreanu checks back and the river whiffs or pairs he can get value by repping a missed draw. If it completes draws he can check decide and probably bluff catch for much less.
In your shoes the Ace is a tremendous card to check jam on as a lot of players are going to bet their aces up on turn, and you donít block any Aces... itís harder applied in the heat of the moment but perfect card to do this on.

https://www.pokerkingblog.com/2008/0...o-final-table/

Thatís the only link I can find to the hand, itís lacking a lot of details sadly but if you dig itís out there
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Old 09-08-2018, 03:29 PM   #21
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdeee View Post
It's an open pre (solver approved).

POT turn.
Solver only goes up to 100bb though; def. possible that this isn't an open at 200bb deep OOP.

As played, turn is definitely a bet. There are a lot more safer rivers than you realise - eg. off-suit 2, 4 or 5 are completely fine since they are both back door straights and there aren't many combos that call flop that would now have a straight - even more so on the 4 or 5 when we hold 22s as a blocker.

If river goes HU, there's even less rivers to worry about and if it goes 3-way you're somewhat protected by the fact that people don't bluff 3-way too liberally so you can safely fold a bad river to a bet.

You can't just x all your sets here OTT for fear of what a river might bring because then your turn betting range has too many draws and not enough value. We should def still check a small % of sets too, but much better a weaker set or a set with no additional equity
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:00 AM   #22
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

X/r flop, pot blank turns
On t83dd ur range should do lot of checking, and that is a board that co/btn stab super wide
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Old 10-17-2018, 03:27 AM   #23
Do0rDoNot
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Re: 5/10 - Is this a turn barrel or c/r for value

Vs. 3 players I bet big here. Too many draws to risk a free card.

HU I almost certainly c/c
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