pre is ofc. debateable...
on the flop, villain is totally unknown so idk if i wanna flat or raise here (how much do i wanna raise ???)

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
PL Omaha $10(BB) Poker Stars
SB ($170)
BB ($500)
UTG ($1,959)
UTG+1 ($1,000)
Hero ($1,226)
BTN ($616)

Dealt to Hero K J 9 J

UTG raises to $40, UTG+1 calls $30, Hero calls $40, fold, SB calls $35, BB calls $30

FLOP ($200) 7 J 3

SB bets $130 (AI), BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $130, Hero ?

im confused.. isnt this always a jam 100% of the time? UTG+1's range is heavily draws (if he had a set he would have probably raised) so you want him out of the pot.

Pot, to much money out there to get cute.

Name one thing good that could happen if you flat call.

see a safe turn card and get the money in as a bigger favourite.

But obviously the best play is to get the money in on the flop...

How is pre ever anything else than a call?

hard to get money in the pot with someone allin and dry sidepot

+1

this.

I think this is a key observation. If UTG+1 has a strong draw, which he is willing to play for stacks you want to get his money on the flop. Because if you call to see a safe turn, and the safe turn falls, meaning UTG+1's strong draw doesn't improve, he will just check/fold once you pot turn, due to small side pot not giving him good pot odds to call. If UTG+1 has a hand on the flop which he will call a blank turn with, then it has to be a strong enough hand to get in on flop, so I just ship flop for this reason. If SB had a full stack, then I would much rather flat to see a safe turn and then get it in, because 3-way it is much more likely to get outdrawn on the turn.

against an UTG raise and UTG+1 call i dont see a lot of merits in playing this hand sometimes.
edit: im also all for raising (which i did) but found it hard to determine a size.

Do you mind explaining why you would pitch this? So far, both our absolute and relative position are optimal.

yeah I know, I was just saying.. obv money in on the flop

what makes you think anyone would say anything other than shove flop?

With stacksizes as they are, it's a nobrainer shove.

However, let's say we have 150BB effective. What do we prefer? Potting to 720 and calling/shipping 740 into 1770 on any turn? Or making it 420 and calling/shipping 1140 into 1170 on any non-heart? What do we do in the latter case if a heart turns and he checks to us?

yeah sure. i often expect my hand to be dominated. setmining with jacks is not very profitable. kjj9 is nit really that connected.

Freudian slip!!

def.

pre is fine imo, it's not like you're auto stacking off on any T83 flop.

i see exactly zero merits to flat calling for any reason in this specific spot.

personally i have to pot this here because of how frequently i'm potting much worse to iso the all in and blow utg out of the pot.

I dont mind folding pre, its really not that great a hand, unless you flop top set . Flop you ofc raise whatever u usually do.

i'm not sure i would fold this pre in the blinds vs a UTG raise + call.
If UTG and UTG+1 is playing close to optimal tightish then i'd fold OOP but may still call in CO though i'm easily convinced it's a mistake.

flop is a repot it's a spot where he have to overcall/fold alot that has equity vs your range IMO.

Stop this bickering about whether calling pre flop is profitable or not. The question is what to do on the flop. I believe that with fold equity plus the fact that the sb and utg+1 might be sharing outs to the same draw (i.e. the same flush draw), shipping is the optimal play. Who knows, utg+1 might be 'coolered' and call off with top 2 or bottom 2 or top and bottom 2, but thats money u might never get into the pot if the turn is a scary card for his hand.

Btw, preflop is 100% a call imo. Stacks are deep enough where you can play your hand in many different ways (such as 3 barrel on a 789 board).