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Old 09-08-2013, 07:53 PM   #1
napsus
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2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

anyone from the PLO world interested in attending?

if someone steps up, i'm sure we can help to push the PLO rep as much as we can to give full support.

PokerStars/2+2-users: October 2013 Meeting proposed
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:16 AM   #2
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

Moonships posts are very valid, and I think some response from Stars would be good

Quote:
More got done before the meeting format and it got done faster. Plus the entire 2+2 community was involved at all stages. The meetings should be squashed as a format. But that will probably not happen because there are enough players hoping they will win the golden ticket and get to go to the Willy Wonka Factory next time.

I also think the average person doesn't know enough about non disclosure agreements. From what I've seen, several of the players who have gone have been almost scared crap-less to post anything at all after the meeting besides their trip reports. If you read some comments by Pokerstars Steve, he has "almost" overtly said nothing is getting posted by a player unless first cleared by Stars. Perceived or not, it seems Stars has some of these players by the ball sack.

The player meeting format is a failure.


Quote:
It is also worth noting that before the player meeting format, we had 365 day a year access to PS reps. You guys remember those days??? But now everything by PS is, "oh we will discuss that at the player meeting that is months from now." Then after the last meeting, if I recall correctly, it was over a month before the trip reports were even posted. And even in that case it was mostly just comments by player reps while PS reps like Steve stayed mostly silent. And if the results of the player meeting are lame, the reply by PS is, "we will talk about it more at the next player meeting that is many many many months from now."

Lame ass crap.

We were better off when the entire 2+2 community had 365 day a year access to PS reps. The response to issues was faster and more genuine.
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:17 AM   #3
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

Also the fact that last guy who went to the meetings didnt even post a TR. Wtf was that about>
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Old 09-10-2013, 07:40 PM   #4
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

rake is the main issue of concern for pretty much all of us. stars have made it clear they dont think its an issue and are not going to change anything.

so i dont blame people for not wanting to go
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:16 AM   #5
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

Yea send some more people to help give them customer feedback and suggestions that might help them understand how to best F us more and make more money for their company while they clearly have 0 concern for the actual game of poker or fairness to their players (and yes, some companies actually do run in a way that considers their customers and integrity of their sport/product even though cynics will disagree).

Tell PS if they want consultation they can pay for it. These meetings aren't about improving player relations because they feel it is important for their business, it's just about PS improving PS.
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:22 AM   #6
Shane Stewart
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

I truly believe that PS does care about the players. As much as any company can while still wishing to turn a healthy profit. I had a great time on my two trips to the Isle of Man. I think I had some positive input on things and that these meetings I went to went quite well. They just seem very unproductive because usually changes aren't implemented very quickly.
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Old 09-11-2013, 03:44 AM   #7
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

They don't just seem unproductive they are .

There was quite some refusal towards them before the last one and I think the results speak for itself.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be contact between stars and the community but I'd rather see it happen online.

I'm not sure what you mean by
Quote:
and that these meetings I went to went quite well
Maybe I'm too result orientated there but holy s*** there was some huge discussion going on regarding PLO rake and the changes made were a joke and nothing more.

Also while I'm not a fan of the anti-ratholing thing that will probably get slapped on every game (because that's how you fix full ring NLHE I guess) Stars did promise a change that still isn't implemented yet.
I think they mentioned they would at the end of June?

The report from Steve taking a freaking month was just the cherry on the cake to that circus ^^.
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praetor View Post
Moonships posts are very valid, and I think some response from Stars would be good
This, this and this.
Like, wtf hapenned to Eldodo ?
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Old 09-17-2013, 01:13 PM   #9
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

For those believing in the meetings the nominations stops 20 September, it looks like Shane Stewart is nominated to go again dunno about Joeri.

And +1 on Eldodo.
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Old 09-17-2013, 01:36 PM   #10
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

Nah, i'm not going.
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Old 09-17-2013, 01:48 PM   #11
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

I do believe in these meetings as a supplement to forum discussion (where Pokerstars could be much better).

I don't think it can hurt to give our views and hope that Pokerstars change some of the stuff that could be fixed. And therefor think we should discuss what should be brought up on that meeting.

What should be followed up from the PLO meeting in your opinion Joeri?

What other stuff think people should be brought up?

Some issues I hope get discussed.

PLO


- PLO rake structure generally (not following the nlhe structure).
- PLO rake reductions.

- PLO Sunday 6max MTT.
- 50bb min at regular tables just like Zoom have (big support for this in last vote).
- PLO specific promotions.
- PLO specific pro activities. Like Isildur partly had with his HU challenges on Pokerstars and Daniel had in NLHE with his 50 100 6m tables.

General

- Table starter rewards.
- Anti buttoning system.
- Fix that you can seat and not start as the BB on new 6m tables.
- Ban jesus seat software.
- Less time to take a waitlisted seat in cashgames to make the list more efficient. Games would also break less often. Ill suggest 30sec.
- Phil Galfond - let make some changes blog. Reread and discuss why any/most of these changes have not been made. Its 20 months old (plenty of time to fix these thing) but I think its still valid, very thoughtfull and deserve a mention.


Cheating

- Global bans / Black book (link to my blog, mod pls delete link if its against rules).
''Make a global blackbook for poker. PokerStars-specific cheating alone could get you banned for a certain time or for life from any PokerStars, Full Tilt, EPT (definitely include live circuit for online crimes and vice versa) for the worst offenders, not only punishment where you get caught. This alone should make people much more scared of cheating if there are consequences for as many poker sites and live venues as possible. ''

Im also gonna quote part of a Rob Young blog :

''Forget the fact that some people will say 'there are cheats on xxxx poker site com' - just think of the thousands of recreational players you can attract because you are excellent at detecting collusion and cheating. I know players that have been caught colluding and cheating by poker sites - banged to rights, guilty as sin, but it is hushed up. Just blow the whistle on these opportunists and show us all the good work you are doing to protect us and our money!''

- Take cheating more serious and do something against the rampant multiaccounting like this: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...-more-1354618/

- Discuss how Pokerstars handle stories (and pr + information to players) about stories like the Jeans EPT Barca https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ojans-1369171/ and the Tourney director stealing from EPTs.
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Old 09-19-2013, 03:42 PM   #12
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

In principle I'd be interested in volunteering to go, pretty sure I'm qualified and am local enough to IoM in London so it wouldn't be such a hassle for me to get there, but I'm way too busy at the moment to do the 2+2 community justice on the relevant issues in October.

Hope somebody can make it though, the meetings definitely have some value IMO even if the reporting last time left a lot to be desired.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:39 PM   #13
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmy View Post
too busy at the moment to do the 2+2 community justice on the relevant issues
Well if you went and then didn't give us any feedback or answer any of our questions you wouldn't be doing any worse than the rest of them.
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Old 09-20-2013, 10:22 PM   #14
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

BBe nice to have some old concerns like Galfonds Blog addressed and if something isnt being considered just to hear why not
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Old 09-20-2013, 11:04 PM   #15
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

Okay, that’s all for now. Again, please chime in, whether here, or on any forum you think a discussion could grow on. Not sure if tackling one idea/issue at a time, or trying to touch on all of them (+ any more ideas you guys have) will be best.

Thanks! Take care, guys.

-Phil



Good idea ddlloo. Someone should get Phil Galfond to attend the meeting.
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Old 09-22-2013, 10:30 PM   #16
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

voting started

PokerStars/2+2-users: October 2013 Meeting: VOTING thread (for two 2+2 users)
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:20 PM   #17
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

Voted Shane again. Trust Joeri doing it (since they both did go to the meetings) and he seem to get PLO issues.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:26 PM   #18
Shane Stewart
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

Would like to be able to represent the PLO community again as I'm the only rep who plays it. I think blopp has raised some great ideas to pass along to Stars.

I think the most pressing issues to people here seem to be the multi-accounting. I think it is hard to prevent friends from sharing accounts but these brand new accounts that appear at nosebleeds are outrageous and more needs to be done to protect players in this situation.

Maybe more focus on getting some prormos for PLO in the sense of some advertised HU matches, things to draw current NL players who maybe be bored with their game and want something new and exciting.

I think promos are best suited to be target toward recreational players to keep them playing and depositing.


I was nominated by someone who was at the last meeting and I've always wrote my trip reports promptly and thing I will do a good job again. Race is relatively close so every vote counts.

Cheers,

Shane
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Old 10-05-2013, 05:32 PM   #19
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blopp View Post
I do believe in these meetings as a supplement to forum discussion (where Pokerstars could be much better).

I don't think it can hurt to give our views and hope that Pokerstars change some of the stuff that could be fixed. And therefor think we should discuss what should be brought up on that meeting.

What should be followed up from the PLO meeting in your opinion Joeri?

What other stuff think people should be brought up?

Some issues I hope get discussed.

PLO


- PLO rake structure generally (not following the nlhe structure).
- PLO rake reductions.

- PLO Sunday 6max MTT.
- 50bb min at regular tables just like Zoom have (big support for this in last vote).
- PLO specific promotions.
- PLO specific pro activities. Like Isildur partly had with his HU challenges on Pokerstars and Daniel had in NLHE with his 50 100 6m tables.

General

- Table starter rewards.
- Anti buttoning system.
- Fix that you can seat and not start as the BB on new 6m tables.
- Ban jesus seat software.
- Less time to take a waitlisted seat in cashgames to make the list more efficient. Games would also break less often. Ill suggest 30sec.
- Phil Galfond - let make some changes blog. Reread and discuss why any/most of these changes have not been made. Its 20 months old (plenty of time to fix these thing) but I think its still valid, very thoughtfull and deserve a mention.


Cheating

- Global bans / Black book (link to my blog, mod pls delete link if its against rules).
''Make a global blackbook for poker. PokerStars-specific cheating alone could get you banned for a certain time or for life from any PokerStars, Full Tilt, EPT (definitely include live circuit for online crimes and vice versa) for the worst offenders, not only punishment where you get caught. This alone should make people much more scared of cheating if there are consequences for as many poker sites and live venues as possible. ''

Im also gonna quote part of a Rob Young blog :

''Forget the fact that some people will say 'there are cheats on xxxx poker site com' - just think of the thousands of recreational players you can attract because you are excellent at detecting collusion and cheating. I know players that have been caught colluding and cheating by poker sites - banged to rights, guilty as sin, but it is hushed up. Just blow the whistle on these opportunists and show us all the good work you are doing to protect us and our money!''

- Take cheating more serious and do something against the rampant multiaccounting like this: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...-more-1354618/

- Discuss how Pokerstars handle stories (and pr + information to players) about stories like the Jeans EPT Barca https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ojans-1369171/ and the Tourney director stealing from EPTs.
nice post , i agree 100%.

about table starting, anti-buttoning etc.

the guy who click sit out last, shouldn't be punished by playing last hand at big blind, should be reverse: who want leave and break the game, should be forced to play last hand at big blind.

thats why tables break so fast, fish leave, everyone worried about paying last big blind, and everyone click sit out very fast... even those players who are willing to keep playing, they click sit out because they are worried about others doing it and he paying last big blind everytime.


this is terrible for games, because some games that might run, stop running, and fishs might feel bad thinking pros are playing as a team.

if you click ''sit out/leave table'', then should apear a msg saying that as ring game policy, everyone should leave on big blind etc. so, if you click sit out and leave, you pay a big blind...

if u leave before big blind, you can leave, but you pay big blind penalty, which would be at ''center'' at table, like ante , or when someone post sb out of position. if its hu, big blind penalty at center of table, if nobody join in 30seconds, table broke and last player sitting (usually the one who want play), wins the penalty.

would reverse what happens nowadays.. today , the guy who break the game, get rewarded and the guy who want keep table running, get punished. -> then, to don't get punished, guy who want play, click sit out fast, so he don't get punished, adn table that might run, don't run...
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Old 10-05-2013, 06:13 PM   #20
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

I would do it and mainly focus on MA, account sharing, bumhunting, table camping, sitting out at one table but playing on others and all that.
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Old 10-05-2013, 06:46 PM   #21
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

about rake on micro, is ridiculous. i just made 70 flips at nl5, and we paid $15 on rake.

3buy ins, over 70 hands. wtf.
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Old 10-05-2013, 07:25 PM   #22
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

Yeah the rake at 1/2 and everything below is ridiculous, people don't really notice it while playing because of auto top up, but at those limits the sites are raking off more money in 1K hands than what was originally put on it by the 6 players that played those hands.

http://www.pokertableratings.com/pok...ot-limit-omaha

The numbers are slightly off since this analysis was done when Stars still had a $3 rake cap instead of $2.80, but the change wasn't that significant. For a 6max game at 100PLO they are still raking 6 buyins (data says 7.66) off of the table per 1K hands played.


http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/rake/

I don't think its a terrible idea for the regs to get together and have 2 of them sitting out per table so that play is 4 handed and the rake cap is at $1.5 per hand instead of $2.80.
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Old 10-05-2013, 10:48 PM   #23
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Re: 2p2/Pokerstars Oct meeting - interested PLO reps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by urubu111 View Post
nice post , i agree 100%.

about table starting, anti-buttoning etc.

the guy who click sit out last, shouldn't be punished by playing last hand at big blind, should be reverse: who want leave and break the game, should be forced to play last hand at big blind.

thats why tables break so fast, fish leave, everyone worried about paying last big blind, and everyone click sit out very fast... even those players who are willing to keep playing, they click sit out because they are worried about others doing it and he paying last big blind everytime.


this is terrible for games, because some games that might run, stop running, and fishs might feel bad thinking pros are playing as a team.

if you click ''sit out/leave table'', then should apear a msg saying that as ring game policy, everyone should leave on big blind etc. so, if you click sit out and leave, you pay a big blind...

if u leave before big blind, you can leave, but you pay big blind penalty, which would be at ''center'' at table, like ante , or when someone post sb out of position. if its hu, big blind penalty at center of table, if nobody join in 30seconds, table broke and last player sitting (usually the one who want play), wins the penalty.

would reverse what happens nowadays.. today , the guy who break the game, get rewarded and the guy who want keep table running, get punished. -> then, to don't get punished, guy who want play, click sit out fast, so he don't get punished, adn table that might run, don't run...
Thanks and perfect solution!

I really support this idea from Urubu. Ive said some similar stuff myself earlier.

Probarly good idea to xpost any idea and feedback in this thread:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...l#post40199537

to make sure the reps and Pokerstars reads it.

+1 On the rake as well.
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