Hi guys,

The game is 25-25-50, there is a 100 straddle on this particular hand, I have a 15000 stack. Most of the players cover me.

CU opens 400, I call on the button with K Q J 7.

6 way on the A 10 8. All check to me. Are you betting all the time here?

depends on stack sizes? betting should be the standard though imo, but i don´t have that many experience with 6way flops...

you have the best possible draw on this board, i think you have to bet to balance with made hands so ppl cant bluff you when one of straight cards hit. if the board was ATx and you had KQJ i would prolly just check

That deep I am pretty much always betting either to take it down or to build implied odds. Even getting check raised here isn't a huge disaster.

Only thing I can think of is there is a number of short stacks and your implied odds/fold equity are too low.

1000 bet here into 2400 pot looks like a standard position play...ive done similar with sim stacks except i had 4 to the nfd...ended up with 5 callers after the first to my left called and no one could resist the pot odds at that point. turn completed my nuts and i potted it and took it down

pretty standard i guess

so you bet 1000 here with sets too? i dont really like that. i would just bet bigger with my entire range since we are never bluffing here anyway into 5 ppl

i am CERTAINLY bluffing here onthe button at times. standard position play that disguises hand well. the whole point of the button

CERTAINLY bluffing ? tell us more about position plays in 6way hands

bluffing here with some random hand must be the worst play ever

yeah unless you can size it down to a 1/10000000 of the pot which is exactly the odds of getting 6 folds when u bet 1k there to loose live players

gii

$2k/call

wtf @ bluffing here
wtf @ balance in live poker

And it's hardly even necessary to ever "bluff" to be "balanced" in this spot.

i have a question.... even though this isnt my thread...

say u bet $1000 or even take it further and pot the flop..

if u get 2 callers and the turn comes blank off suit card and it goes check check to u...

what do u do?? bet again or give up??

Your value in this hand comes via the freeroll. Turning the nuts with backup for all the money is where your going to print your EV.

Our hand is terribly crushed vs all x/r ranges this deep

you are not seriously advocating bet/folding? prolly the nut worst play we can make

I don't think we can fold here, we have 13 nut outs and basically the best possible draw on this board, but...

aren't we behind any range that wants to play with us?

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: AT8

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
KcQhJc7s	46.85%	258,526	45,146
A$R$R,KQJ,J9,TT,88	53.15%	296,328	45,146

This is the absolutely most optimistic range I could think of here and we're still slightly behind.

So isn't checking it back a better move?

This at CC?

With 2400 in the pot, it's still 16% of your stack. So betting to go with it or take the pot down on the turn is the right move. It's going to be really tough for you to fill up and get paid on this board with this many players. Only 1/3 of the cards fill you up. And you might be chopping with some of your hits that you could bet out. I would bet big enough for the EP players to be at a check raise or fold decision. You have 50/50 equity and might get a multi way equity spot once you bet. Checking here is very weak. And it's live poker... So there is small fold equity here given wide preflop ranges.

checking v betting depends on many things, but the most important factor in this case is how often we are going to take down the pot without going to showdown.

Keep in mind that we have 2 BDFDs in this hand, not one. So we have roughly 48.5% equity versus the assigned range. With an SPR of 6.3ish, To B/C +EV we only need ~46.5% equity. So, immediately b/c is showing a profit.

If we expect to take it down something like 10-20% with a bet on the flop, we are just printing by b/c'ing.

So yeah, b/c'ing is very +EV here.

For checking it is a lot harder to measure EV and I don't really feel like spending time breaking it down. Basically the biggest benefit would be getting 2+ streets of value versus a sucker straight if a 9 comes which is going to happen <2% of the time. Its just not as +EV as b/c.

That makes sense, thanks.

Just one more question... you say that b/c shows profit if we have 46.5% equity or better, which I assume you say because of the dead money already in pot. Now, my understanding is that to bet a hand for pure value (discounting FE), you need better than 50% equity, because you are laying yourself 1:1 on the additional money V puts in when he calls your bet. Is that not the case in PLO? Is it because it's pot limit? Because of stack depths? I'm confused.

Alll the time.. 9 is going to be our ultimate money w/freeroll card and two good bdfds.. Should be the top of our bluffing range otf

That is a common misconception. Think about it some more.. if you risk $100 to win $100, you only need 50%. If you have that proposition with dead money, even just $5, its +EV if you have 50%.

It has nothing to do with the type of game. Its pot odds. People think "Oh pot odds, I've heard that, I get it!!" but the vast majority of people do not actually understand it.

This is true on the river (specifically in position) -- essentially, when equities are static.

It's not true as a matter of principle before the river. It can be correct to bet for "value" with <50% equity when villain's folding range has >0% equity and/or when you have a sufficient ex-sd advantage.