ok my last post on this topic just wanted to share a hand i played last night that should show the problem with how you guys are thinking about hands.
you're locked into this static way of thinking about hands and calling ranges etc and not adjusting it based on specific players which will just cost you a ton of value.

i guarantee if i posted this hand with no results and asked about the river play everyone would say obv check back he can never call with worse, but i had played with this guy for 2 days str8 and knew 100% where he was at and that he was calling me on the river no matter what card fell.

i open QJhh73 on button to 300 and villain calls with 10K from the blinds and the straddle calls. villain has 10K i cover. i have a tilty image as i just got 2 outed in a 20K pot and i have been raising a **** ton of hands in position and being very aggro post flop winning a ton of pots w/o showdown.
me and villain have a ton of history, we played HU 10/20 for like a day str8 and i crushed him, he really wants to get me badly.

flop is AhKd7h

chk chk 600 villain calls straddle folds.

turn Td

he chks i snap pot (2100) he hems and haws a bit and calls (fwiw villain is bad and always slowplays his big hands ALWAYS its absurd)

river 2d completing the back door flush.

he checks pretty quickly (has about 6K left)

i shove.

he tanked for like 10mins and called me with AAxx.

this is the perfect example of where live reads and history you have with your opponents trumps theoretical discussion of ranges and all the other types of things you run thru simulations etc.

the most valuable thing you can do at a deep stack live PLO game is pay real close attention to every person at the table.
you shouldn't be playing with a set formula of when you bet/raise/fold etc you should obv understand hand ranges and equities and all that jazz but being able to play completely differently vs every single opponent on the table is what you should really strive for.
i knew this guy had a big made hand (he raises his draws flats his made hands etc) i also knew he wanted my chips soooooo badly i could vb super thin vs him and he's not going to be thinking rationally on the river. he's going to see a **** ton of chips in the middle and want so badly to be able to call and hear me say "you got it" etc thats all he's been dying to do for the past 2 days.

really good live players look like schizo's because they'll vary their play so much based on the info they've gathered on their opponents from paying attention to every hand that gets showdown.

most people don't have the patience or attention span to do it and once they fold they're checking their phone or ipad or talking to a buddy or just spacing out until the hand is over and they get cards again.

easy to do when you have a HUD to check everyone's stats and find out exactly what they play in every position whenever you feel like it, not as easy when you're playing live and its slow as **** and people are tanking in freaking 10bb pots.

i dont think so. its not a snap vb, but more often than not will be. his turn call is putting you on blockers.

the hands are completely different. Your 1st one is misplayed(otf). I get what you're trying to do-trying to make btn think you're semibluffing after villans weak cbet, but stacks are too awkward for this and you raised too much.

bump

lol come on you are really going to tell me that more often then not you can make a PSB on that river and get called by worse often enough to be profitable in a live full ring PLO game.

L-O-L.

i'm mean sure its easy since i posted results. funny tho i talked about the hand with one of the best players on the planet and he said he would almost never VB the river.
but ya can't wait for the string of "oh ldo easiest vb ever"

It feels like you're our dad and you're trying to tell us about the birds and the bees when we're 17 and have had our fair share already.

well this game sounds amazing, but its not cos u rbk

you try so hard to be clever and yet you fail so miserably.

game is amazing.

Great post RBK and I completely agree with what you are saying. I have played a lot of live full ring PLO as well. It is a must to have solid reads on every player at the table, because like you said it is a must to assess every situation based on the player or players involved in the hand as well as your history with the players.

Do you think in the above hand, most players would bet into you if they had made the back door flush or check call with the flush trying to get you to bluff? Obviously, your image at the time plays a big role in their decision.

As far as the first hand you posted, like you have said the mistake was raising the flop OOP because you are basically turning your hand into a bluff vs the villain who had raised one time in the past hour.

As it had already been said over and over, he has AAxx or A10xx pretty much every time.

i think that particular player would open ship if he had the flush there most of the time as he has to assume i'm going to check back almost all of my value range and the pot is so big he just has to hope i make a crying call with my str8/set.

well its defintely lol to rule out the certain range of some guy on the button based on, and lets assume 100 hours which is a helluva lot, like 2000 hands of history so idk why rbk was so butthurt with the 100% predictable responses itt, even if raising isn't some horrific mistake

A) he wasn't on the button. the OR was in EP/MP and the caller was next to act. this is a 9 handed game as well so there were like 3 or 4 people behind him.

B) i wasn't butt-hurt at all, i could care less if people don't like how i play a hand (i even said in my OP i thought i made a bad CR in general but had my reasons for it). i was just shocked out of my mind that people would try and argue with me about what this players 3betting range was when they don't know who he is or have ever played a single hand with him before. not too mention i would make a bet that the people arguing with me haven't played much full ring live PLO in their life so prolly aren't too qualified to argue about peoples 3betting range in different positions etc. its just an insanely stupid position to take.

how in the **** can you take issue with the range i give someone whom i have played hundreds of hours with, when you havent played a single hand with them?
that is just ridic.

i said in my OP two different times my flop CR is terrible (i should have said its terrible in a vacuum) but said i had my reasons for it, so clearly i wasn't upset when people said my flop CR was bad.

i then went on to state what those reasons were (tho i shouldn't have) and they included me giving the kids 3betting range which is when the argument started.
some genius completely ignored me saying he would 3bet all hands that had broadway cards + a ten and posted my equity vs the top 15% of hands that contained a T and was like "you don't want to play for stacks".

i made several different posts explaining why i would've been happy to get it in vs that kid and yet people just kept saying "well why can't he have a better ten" and then showing me all the different combo's of hands that have a king and a ten in them like i don't know that KQJT and KQT9 and KJJT etc exist and hadn't specifically said i did not believe he could have those hands when he flats the open.

its like having an argument where the other person just keeps repeating the same thing w/o hearing a word you say in response.

I think the bigger deal than preflop ranges since they are so hard to precisely define in PLO, is the awkward guessing game you force yourself into by bloating this pot oop. Obv you have to switch things up and not play every hand the same and I can respect that, but I would soooo much prefer this play if you were in position. Pretty much any turn puts you in an awkward spot where you don't know whether you're drawing dead or he is. Tough decisions are obv what separates good from great players, I just think you put yourself in a massive leveling war which in this particular spot is very precarious being oop. Since you're basically c/f any turn(I could be wrong about this assumption) I think pot control outweighs the value from raising to get value from a better ten, but I'll lighten up on my earlier critique going with your pf read

This cannot not be a level. You talking about someone failling in this thread?

word yo tho the way the game was playing my plan if the OR folded and the kid called was to ship a whole bunch of turn cards. obv all of this was based on history and the dynamics of the game at the time.

i might be mistaken but i'm pretty sure your boys with joe right (big egypt)?
i was the one sitting right next to him getting soul crushed in the 20/40/80PLO game when you came down after busting the main.

he crushed my soul in badugi prop but i made up for it by cold-decking the **** out of him in a 30K pot. was a super gross cooler, but he ended up getting it all back plus a bunch from someone else.

he's a super nice kid and real good player as well.

Haha nice, yeah that was def me. That game was absurd from what joe said, so hard to get pertinent hand advice from a game like that via 2+2. You weren't the guy from Marin were you?

yup that was me, tho technically ima lil north of marin (petaluma).

edit: i typo'd in that last post i wasn't getting soul crushed in the actual game just the props.

All words are not created equal.

fwiw I would basically never vbet there and doing so profitably requires a pretty sickstrong read. gg for having it.

I think hand-reading on the river based on flop/turn actions is much more reliable than hand-reading pre-flop based on someone's decision to call an open in position, though. That's not to deny the possibility that you do possess the sort of dead-to-rights perception of his range that you claim to. I'm simply skeptical.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never encountered a player in my entire life who is terrible in the precise way that you describe this one as being terrible. So I find the description to be extraordinarily implausible. Even if I believed that your reads were accurate 99% of the time, Bayes' would leave me thinking that the probability of your read being accurate in this specific instance was well below 50% due to the base rate of [players fitting description given] being much smaller than 1%.

This is not an accurate description of anything that has happened here. Your inability to recall events that took place so recently in a context that can be easily reviewed causes me to doubt your ability to precisely peg a player's pre-flop range based on the limited amount of data that even hundreds of hours playing full-ring live PLO with him would produce.

I'm sorry you feel like you're not being heard. I often feel the same way and it can get annoying.

No offence, but you sound like you haven't played a lot of PLO...

Rbk come back to the betting thread. We miss stuff like this

QFL-O-L

i cringe everytime i read a RBK post, surely i'm not the only one.