straddled to 80, middle aged guy with around 6k opens in mp to 300 (havent seen him play a hand in the hour -ish qive been there), younger asian next to act calls with about 6k, ive played with him a bunch.....hes a tight, thinking, solid player, but no idea what villian thinks of him. ive never seen villian in game before (think maybe hes a 10/20 player taking a shot).
i call from the BB with QT97ds and also have about 6k.

flop ATT rainbow.

villian bets 300 YP calls pretty quickly i normally always flat here but for some reason decide to butcher the hand and make it 1500.

villian thinks a bit checks out the YPs stack thinks a bit more then calls. YP folds quickly.

turn 6 check check.

river 7 check he thinks for maybe 5secs and kindv shrugs and says all in (think pot was slightly less then his shove but not by much).

i think my flop CR is pretty terrible but what do you think about the rest of the hand?

can we pls not have the idiotic
A) if you fold this why are youncalling preflop
B) if you fold this you should play lower stakes where the $ doesnt mean as much.

i had my reasons at the time for the flop CR but i dont really think it was a good play.

Gross spot but I feel like his flop call is AAxx and A10xx just a huge amount of the time. I don't feel like he turns a hand like 10jqk or something into a bluff here.

oh also this may not matter but the table had agreed to a round of straddles so not like villian thinks im just looking to gamble more then anyone else.

is it 6 max? I think river is a fold. Has you stated flop c/r is bad, if you are ever going to do it, I don't see why it should be 5x.

wtf are u doing

Fold now? It's not enough of a reason to CR the flop. But now you did, might as well make sure of the information you paid for.

c/f turn, c/f river. His flop sizing is really unusual, but once he calls a c/r, he has AA. The only way you have the best hand on the river is if he's a confused NL player.

Flop's pretty close between a call and a fold. I'd probably call it in real time, but I doubt it's +EV. Would like the flop raise a lot better with an A than a T, but you'd want to have a pretty good read on the bettor that he can lay down trips, and I wouldn't size it that big either. As played, river is a fold. His range is [AA, AT, T7] and the T7 part has to be heavily discounted.

Here's a sim supporting the idea that we probably shouldn't even call the flop:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

118,092 trials (Randomized)

board: ATT

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QT97	29.67%	29,256	11,553
T:30%	70.33%	77,283	11,553

That's just us against the Asian's range without even taking into account the range of the initial bettor.

this whole thread is a level right?

Iggy, pot on the flop is ~1k. The bet is 300. Asian guy's range isn't what you've put considering this.

Ya, river has to be a fold. Id probably need 10-1 to call there.
I agree w/flop being close between call/fold as well.

depends when you figure out the c/r was going to eff you hah. If you figure it out between the flop and turn, you wanna bet small, like 1k (under the assumption you aren't getting this sized bet c/r'ed by A***) to ice villian on river.

I'd rather bet 1k slighty bad vs. villian in spot he is probably never callling turn/leading riv, than guess on 4k whether I played my hand too strong on one street and too weak on the other.

If you didn't get it until after the hand, that line wouldn't make a lot of sense at the time, and I agree with Grizy on folding with the 'not enough' defense; but it's definitely very, very close... like only gameflow matters at that point close if he is the type to bet AKQ, AKJ, type hands and checks unboated... once you get away from either of those assumptions even a little (most players are.) it'll be a fold, and maybe it is with that range just haven't ran it.

I can't think of any scenario where that T:30% would ever be relevant on this board. Even if you had to call a bet, or call a raise... the relevant range is villian's betting/raising range as a subset of PFR range to get your frequencies, and that will not look like T:30%... people don't play to scale after the top 0-5%, and you wouldn't want to anyway since rankings are so far from actual values in this game.

man is that a good post

I'm confused, you mention the flop c/r, but this is worded like we are IP?

I dunno, I played some live PLO for the first time this weekend, and from what I saw, no one was close to capable of having a float here or turning AKQ into a bluff. Especially not the guy who goes an hour without playing a hand...

I saw some funky stuff on paired boards, but mostly it involved people betting way too thinly for value/protection when they had the lead.

and that shrug jam **** is just so strong imo

ya i folded pretty quickly.....my initial flop CR had to do with dynamics between me and the young pro who was the one i really thought had the T at the time and felt i was taking the line which would maximize me getting his stack.

once the OR called i pretty much immediately was done with the hand.

i folded the river decently quickly.

guy next to me went bananas cuz he saw my hand and offered the kid a bunch of $$$ to show a bluff but he couldn't.

if he doesn't have AA its cos he has AT and the other guy was floating

Any simulations, whatever nonsense people want to do in this thread is meaningless with this information. Fold as quickly as possible. Without the tell, it's rather interesting but probably still a fold

be open minded, it's not nonsense.

in this example that nonsense shows that the only way this is a call is if you had an opponent with particularly unusual ranges here... so it's an obvious fold vs. an unknown, without any tell at all, not interesting at all --- maybe I did a poor job of explaining that, but its there. Unfortunately, if you don't understand that nonsense you'd need a read to come to the same firm decision. it's not voodoo, its just another tool.

Flop raise is completely unnecessary in this spot and is basically burning money on fire. Super easy call on flop and super easy fold if there's anymore action even if you improve.

Unless turn checks through

i had a dynamic with the other villian in the pot and based on our extensive history i decided raising the flop was most likely the only way i was going to get to play for stacks vs him if he had a T.

obv i didn't expect the first dude to flat call, once he did it was pretty obv what he had.

i actually talked to his buddy after who wasn't at the table at the time but told him about the hand. he obv had it.