You mean you doubt you play subsequent streets well enough

I mean there's not a lot of play left vs UTG... its prob just he shoves every turn and hero calls any non J/8. But i could be wrong maybe ur just the best and have some way to make tons of $ in this spot that I'm missing. Ur OOP w/ a hand thats probably going to be relatively face up on later streets (short stack prob just shoves almost any turn anyways) if any1 overcalls. I don't see how this is that much if at all better but maybe u have plans for how the hand will play out that will just baffle us all. If they were the type to overcall w/ pair+GS or bottom 2 type hands I can see it being very profitable but they're probably stealing ur equity a lot more then the guy leading outs so keeping them in seems like a pretty big mistake.

After reviewing this hand many times,reading some responses, and discussing with some other players I respect, I definitely think that some kind of min raise on the flop is best, assuming that we are ok folding to a shove if it plays out like pot / repot behind us.

As played, I really wanted to ninja fold the turn, as 1 poster suggested, but didn't, and I realize that if cutoff was more astute, he should have blown us off the hand on the turn.

On the river we checked, of course, and cutoff made the absolute tightest check ever with KQ89cc (2nd nut flush). UTG rolls over AKQTr in disgust.

Obviously, we were never ahead at any point, and needed to believe that UTG wasn't shoving 2 pair on that turn, and only some % of 88/JJ, so in all likelihood we are chopping at best, but that still leaves CO to beat us some other way.

Anyway, looks like I played this wrong on the flop and turn, but I thought it was a good illustration of how a semi premium hand can flop reasonably well and still be in a bad spot, due to position and disparate stack sizes.

raise pre bigger

No, don't do this.

No, you played it fine, just because you ended up running into the worst possible hand doesn't mean you didn't play the hand correctly.

make it 300 on flop, possibly after asking utg how much he has behind first

put the CO in the tough spot instead of yourself

oh looks like you've already concluded this

Mash the pot button pre, I probably mash it again on the flop to try to fold AJxx type hands

My opinion, I have played a lot of 2/5 live PLO, your problem, and I haven't read the flop yet, just your musings, your problem comes from your R z size. I would either go big or go home (limp). And honestly, as I think about those games, I would probably develop a minRing range before a 3x range when pot is what, 5x + already?

Im saying bet the bet, or sometimes I even bet near pot bc it doesn't really matter. Maybe pot is 60 and you make it 50 on your straddle or something, Ok. Maybe you give action. Maybe you say something about your hand other than, I have a middling hand, a hand that can play fast and wants a little money in there, but not too much because I know I am crushed by anything w/ serious PF equity. Play accordingly.

Maybe you shouldn't say that.

Lol I read this right at the time when the your avatar stops celebrating. It was pretty funny.

I have also read (lightly perused) this thread. It sounds like you should treat my advice as sage. Wazz's as well.

1. You call the flop. There is no raising. WTF?

2. You fold to aggression from stacks that are deep. Period. 200 BBs is enough that you should fold if they are not completely flummoxed. For $500 w/ this hand, as the PF Rer (which was bad IMO, as I mentioned earlier) you should basically not care what happens (there is a lot of variance in this game and $500 really isnt that much). Play your best w/ your reads, but w.e. You have too much equity to fold (I would feel stupid if I made it 30 in this spot,period. But anyway...I would feel stupid if I made it 30 and then F/C/F this flop. WTF did you want to have come?).

3. Were to have to play turn against CO you would C/F Ks prolly C/F or B/F As, The rest of the turns you can prolly C/R, B/C or C/C and be OK. Just some are better than others (with in theory certain frequencies) depending on CO's tendencies. This is a rather rare spot. I would just play straight forward.

TBH, PLOMAHAHA plays itself if you do it right. But you started all screwy IMO and now you feel screwy.

I put it to you, that perhaps you feel like you are standing a slippery slope because you did not start from solid ground...

1. I maintain that a minraise on this flop seems optimal, as it proides some protection and definition. CO or BTN has to see that UTG can reopen the action, so they are less likely to call w 2pr hands, and are less likely to call w draws.

2. I was ok to getting $500 in against UTG here (and ultimately losing), but $2K vs. CO is another story. This board doesn't dictate risking 400BB with my hand. I understand that there is a lot of variance in this game (not my first rodeo, thanks), but variance for variance's sake isn't required when there are so many great spots vs. weak opponents.

My game is a little grindier than it could be, but I have <100BI for this game and a family to support, so I'm not always looking for spots with 55% equity to jam in a couple grand.

I'm not sure I understand why you think this board is about the best we can expect, and thus just go ahead and shovel chips in. Pretty easy to be dominated here, especially on the turn.

3. "This is a rather rare spot." ..... "I would just play straightforward." ???? Seems contradictory, as rare spots by definition are not straightforward. In any case, really didn't like calling on the turn, as we are basically turning our hand over, and hoping for a blank.

All in all, perhaps there is some merit as to starting awkwardly with a 3X raise. Pot or limp both appear to be better actions. Limping allows us to ninja fold the turn and not feel dirty, potting makes us feel ok about jamming flop. I guess small raise is neither fish nor fowl.

Which poses another question, which I will post in a new thread: Best strategy set for adjusting to disparate stack sizes in live PLO...

Excellent thread OP. You seem like a very thinking, solid player.

Heres my opinions:
If this is a serious concern for you, the way to counter this is to flat call when you have KT in this spot (and flat calling the nuts when youre facing aggression from a player like this in the future, even on scary boards. If they take the bait and bomb it again on safe turn/river cards for you, youve got 'em.) You cant really ever raise w/ T9 ott here nor can you call a raise from the CO ott profitably in the long run. You will run into KT too many times and when you do youre dead to a chop. I dont particularly like ninja folding either, even though that would be a very interesting play. His bet is just too small (Pot is $945 and its only $345 to call if my math and everything is correct). Given how few chips he has left, I could see him reacting the same way and shoving all kinds of hands we beat. Do you ever seem him checking AKQx, any QQxx, or any other set? I dont. He could also have T9 as well. However, if he had a lot more chips, made the same reaction, and followed up with another pot sized bet ott.... that would be a completely different scenario. And I would weigh his range much more towards KT/T9 and probably have to fold.

I think you played the hand totally fine. Preflop is ok, you have a nice hand and I dont think it makes toooo much of a difference if you limp/raise to 30/or raise the pot. I think being oop vs the pro is ok as long as you dont wind up going heads up against him all that often. If a lot of people are in the hand, it hamstrings him from being able to make too many moves without a strong hand. Calling or min raising the flop is correct, Id never raise for the same reasons you wouldnt. Calling the turn is also fine in theory, I guess I would have to be there and have a super solid grasp on his tendencies and tells to ever consider folding. And check/folding the river is obvious.

Oh really?

Board: AJ8

A9T7 - 17.53%
AKQT - 82.47%

A9T7 - 28.93%
QJJT - 71.07%

A9T7 - 31.17%
T988 - 69.84%

A9:T7 - 35.16%
AKQJ - 64.84%

Just to show a few, there are a lot of 2 pair/set + straight draw combos that have us in bad shape. AKQT is the worst I think and thats only 1 pair + straight draws.

Yeah, I ignored that comment as well. The reality is closer to the opposite: there aren't too many hands we hae drawing thin (at least not ones continuing in this spot).

As far as flatting with the nuts here, I would be likely to do this against certain droolers behind me, ones who are willing to go with a hand that's like bottom 2 or who would jam with 9T.

Thanks for the responses, Disc. I appreciate the kind words.

I'm in the camp that there was nothing inherently wrong with how you played it. You have a bad draw, i.e. one in which you make a lot of second best hands. And the relative strength of your hand isn't great, plus position isn't awesome.

I'm much happier with calling the flop and then reevaluating on the turn. Building up a pot, oop, imho is not a good idea. You'll be putting yourself into really tough spots when you get raised. I'd much rather play for showdown value here and try to keep the pot small. Yes, you risk getting drawn out on, but that's PLO.

Interesting spot

I like the 2 flop options. Calling or minraising because reopens the betting.

If we call, we need to have a range to support a raise from the players behind us.

Now, this hand would be more interesting if the UTG were shorter and we could not reopen the betting, limiting our flop options.

Agreed with this. I think minraising is best here.

I think we can reasonably expect UTG to ship it almost always. Since the other villains are aware of this, they are going to be in a world of hurt if they flat our min-raise since our range contains many hands that crush their range. If you are villain with the meganuts here: JJTQ, you are hating life when we minclick it and still hating life when we ship it.

With shorter UTG i'm pretty torn, but think the line as played to the river would be best with an x/f on river.

Broadway has us in pretty bad shape on the turn, IMO.