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High Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 2/4 and above pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 04-30-2020, 04:07 AM   #1
Prone2MonkeyTilt
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2/2 Deep - How to Lose the Least? / Line Check

Live 2/2, 500 max, UTG straddle to 4 or "dealer friendly 5" blind raise more often than not. Hand was a couple months ago at casino, so I'll provide as much accurate detail and relevance as I remember...

Hero has ~$1800. Villain is next largest stack with ~$1200.
Don't remember exact pre-flop action, but hero sees flop from SB with A2KJ in a multi way straddled and raised pot. It was approximately 5 players to the flop for $25, I'll just call the pot $125 to make things easy.

Flop($125): 89T

Hero gags and leads for pot. 1 fold, 1 AI for ~$100, 1 raise AI for ~$200, villain flats, hero calls ~75.

Turn($825): 2

Hero bets $200 praying that one of the AI short stacks has the SF and villain is perhaps looking for the board to pair, or will raise his SF now. Villain flats.

River($1225): A

Was almost hoping that the board would pair so I could check fold at this point. I've played with villain plenty, he's a decent player, but he does chase sometimes and has stacked off to me in the past more than once for 2+ buy ins. Based on the action I don't see him folding 99xx, TTxx, or something like Tx9xKQ on the flop or turn. He's not holding (just) a small flush thinking it's good. He was either drawing to a boat, needing another connecting heart to make a SF, or he flopped the goods. Anyway...

Hero pukes and bets $200. Villain tanks. At this point I'm ready to toss my cards in the muck now. Not just tanks, but Hollywood tanks..."Why such a small bet?" "Did you really flop a straight flush?" Making facial gestures like he's really perplexed. The whole 9. At this point I'm not calling a min raise (wasn't calling a snap min raise either fwiw). He ends up shoving. I muck.

Anyway... In the grand scheme of things I don't feel like I played it terribly. As played I think I have to bet the river and I don't hate the size of my bet. Having said that (questioning my previous logic now)...I suppose that I could check-fold the river in this scenario, as the only hands that call are KQxx and KJxx. Curious what you guys think about alt lines. I'm guessing that check flop gets me to basically the same spot on the turn. Not sure what short stacks had but I don't think my bet had anything to do with their eagerness to get their money in. Flop as played and check turn could be check check, but would also give a set a free card. I'll stop rambling, curious to hear some thoughts. Thanks guys.
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Old 04-30-2020, 06:22 AM   #2
cardporn
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Re: 2/2 Deep - How to Lose the Least? / Line Check

He could do it with Jhxxx obv but unlikely given flop action.
Dont like flop sizeing or betting in general vs those stack sizes
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Old 05-01-2020, 12:25 PM   #3
answer20
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Re: 2/2 Deep - How to Lose the Least? / Line Check

Quite the 'dam do, dam don't' spot IMO.

I probably don't bet or only bet $40-50 OTF. Typically I want to be able to re-pot from OOP should a bunch of action occur behind me. I understand that this may fold out weaker hands that are behind but would've called a smaller bet while leaving hands that you are vulnerable to (or behind) as the only ones calling/shoving. I like to get side pots going as I feel Players feel more committed to continue when they have two pots they've invested in ... as long as I still hold the nuts, of course!!

AP, why such a bargain OTT? It's small to induce, but also allows that FH draw at a really good rate. It may also open the door up to a steal/bluff from a weaker flush if the Board pairs anyway. Are you saying that 'this' V range is so small that if you get potted OTT that you fold the 4th best hand without batting an eye?

OTR the side pot is $400 and the V has $800 behind. Looking at it this way I can see why a Turn size of $200 makes more sense since you can get away from it. But you really need to be solid in your read/range of this V.

I'm just worried about how often (if at all) V can use the Jh against you here. You're getting less than 4 to 1 on a call of the total pot and I doubt if V has 20% shove bluffs. So from that regard the Turn sizing is very good since it left you a back door to get away from the hand. One blocker eliminates only 2 of the 3 possible best hands and you don't have that advantage.

Sounds to me like you know your opponent .. and the speech sealed the deal for you. Kudos? I'm not so sure I'm getting away from this one without the benefit of a lot of V history ... but I've made my fair share of 2nd nuts folds, so a 4th nuts fold shouldn't be a stretch. There are 'lots' more combos of AxXx flushes when holding the Kx flush ... this is a different animal. GL
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Old 05-11-2020, 04:27 AM   #4
Evante
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Re: 2/2 Deep - How to Lose the Least? / Line Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20 View Post
Quite the 'dam do, dam don't' spot IMO.

I probably don't bet or only bet $40-50 OTF. Typically I want to be able to re-pot from OOP should a bunch of action occur behind me. I understand that this may fold out weaker hands that are behind but would've called a smaller bet while leaving hands that you are vulnerable to (or behind) as the only ones calling/shoving. I like to get side pots going as I feel Players feel more committed to continue when they have two pots they've invested in ... as long as I still hold the nuts, of course!!

AP, why such a bargain OTT? It's small to induce, but also allows that FH draw at a really good rate. It may also open the door up to a steal/bluff from a weaker flush if the Board pairs anyway. Are you saying that 'this' V range is so small that if you get potted OTT that you fold the 4th best hand without batting an eye?

OTR the side pot is $400 and the V has $800 behind. Looking at it this way I can see why a Turn size of $200 makes more sense since you can get away from it. But you really need to be solid in your read/range of this V.

I'm just worried about how often (if at all) V can use the Jh against you here. You're getting less than 4 to 1 on a call of the total pot and I doubt if V has 20% shove bluffs. So from that regard the Turn sizing is very good since it left you a back door to get away from the hand. One blocker eliminates only 2 of the 3 possible best hands and you don't have that advantage.

Sounds to me like you know your opponent .. and the speech sealed the deal for you. Kudos? I'm not so sure I'm getting away from this one without the benefit of a lot of V history ... but I've made my fair share of 2nd nuts folds, so a 4th nuts fold shouldn't be a stretch. There are 'lots' more combos of AxXx flushes when holding the Kx flush ... this is a different animal. GL
^^

really disagree with your turn bet sizing, if really so much fear of SF then dont bet at all. I will bet here at least 50% to charge for FH draw.

I feel you are convincing yourself every street that he has SF thus you might not be thinking clearly.

"Was almost hoping that the board would pair so I could check fold at this point. I've played with villain plenty, he's a decent player, but he does chase sometimes and has stacked off to me in the past more than once for 2+ buy ins. Based on the action I don't see him folding 99xx, TTxx, or something like Tx9xKQ on the flop or turn. He's not holding (just) a small flush thinking it's good. He was either drawing to a boat, needing another connecting heart to make a SF, or he flopped the goods. Anyway..."

If he really that good, you kinda signal him your hand too, isnt it?
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Old 05-11-2020, 09:31 AM   #5
answer20
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Re: 2/2 Deep - How to Lose the Least? / Line Check

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Originally Posted by Evante View Post
really disagree with your turn bet sizing, if really so much fear of SF then dont bet at all. I will bet here at least 50% to charge for FH draw.

If he really that good, you kinda signal him your hand too, isnt it?
1) I also didn't like the Turn bet for myself. But, as we can plainly see, OP is basically ready to fold to any aggression .. but still feels obligated to charge something 'just in case'. By betting $200 OTT, leaving $575 effective behind, there's still room to get away from this OTR supposing the soul read of a SF.

What 50% are you referring to? This a pretty weird spot since anything we bet on the Turn opens a new side pot. ($525 main, $300 side #1) What if one of the all-ins holds the SF? We should try to get some secondary value just in case we lose in the other two pots. I think betting $300+ may lose most weaker hands since they may not be looking at this from a dry side pot viewpoint.

The total pot(s) is $825, V has $775 behind. I don't really mind 'considering' a bet of $225-240 here since it will cover our 'investment' in the other two pots and essentially creates a reasonable 'side pot' sized shove OTR of $550 or less.

Potting (bad) or betting larger, essentially leaving scraps behind for the River, might lose us some value that we might recover in the new 2nd side pot.

2) Certainly OTR Hero pretty much says call-me, 'Ace high flush', but before that I'm not so sure V really knows what we have. Anytime you have lots of history between two Players there should be plenty of leveling going on ... and I'm still going to harp on the fact that we have three pots to chase which 'should' be part of the decision making process, but may not be for lots of Players. GL
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