9 handed 10/25 live PLO many players straddling UTG to $50.

MP $2800
Hero CO $15,000 (Ad8dQcJc)
Villain BT $12,000

UTG straddle to $50.
Mid pos opens $200 Hero Calls from CO, Villain calls from BT.

flop Qd4d5s

MP checks to hero who bets $500.
BT ra pot $2200 MP folds.

Villain is a creative player with a wide range especially from button. His range includes str8/flush combo draws, 2 pair, and sets.

Interested in people's thoughts calling vs. raising in this spot.

If I give villain a very agressive range (like described in op), hero will have 48.4% equity and does better just shipping it, benefits from fe now and avoids huge errors on the turn

3 bet pre

..ship? Hero is 12k deep with villain.

I like a 3b pre.

I like flatting flop. We play turns very well. We have other nfd combos we prefer to jam. Could be convinced otherwise though.

Take it with a grain of salt, because I don't play higher than 5/10 max, a prefer 2/5.

I flat the flop and see what happens. We're too deep to just gii here, especially if he has some of our outs, and I hate 4bet/fold.

If we really think we have fold equity and love our chances, go for it, but I flat.

Please put pot sizes on each street.

What?

I am not 4betting to fold, and I'm not quite ready to gii, so I don't 4bet.

You 4bet/fold here? I just think that's pretty bad.

This is a very interesting hand. There are merits to 3betting pre as well as flatting. Largely depends on player tendencies. The obvious being If the blinds are call happy on straddles and if blinds or mP player overvalues hands and can get stacks in on a 89T board with 7J then I like flatting. If the table plays rather snug post flop then I like 3 betting. etc etc

This would have been a good hh to do a PAHWM thread with more info on players pre

As for flop our hand is too good to fold here especially if villain is creative. I flat here and plan to continue on any 9 or higher on turn, possibly A

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4-bet/fold is out of the question in this spot. So bringing up 4-bet/fold makes no sense. But that is probably what you meant.

I like flatting this raise as you OP is to deep to gii.

Wow, I didn't think it was that difficult to understand.

Thanks for your input everyone.

As played I didn't 3bet pre-flop as the MP opener has a tight range and I don't like the way my hand would play against his range should he 4bet. I want to see a flop and also invite players in behind me who may have a wider range which is dominated by my holding.

As played I re-raised on the flop and we got it in. Villain had bottom set. We ran it twice and he took down both boards.

I think the better play is just calling his raise on the flop. I think we can still get possible value from our hand on later streets when we are ahead, and we minimize our loss in cases such as this, where our opponent has a set or where turn boards are bad for our range and likely to hit his.

WTF happened in this hand? Did V have a Q? What were his cards? I just can't imagine gii here w/ bottom set unless he knew your hand -- or had some little wrap? Is he just insane? Does anyone else here gii w/ $12,000 in a T/25 w/ bottom set?

I like folding or shipping depending in the players
I hate calling not closing the action with a pretty face up hand that is hardly ever getting paid off when you hit

(...)UTG straddle to $50(...)
They are ~200bb deep actually.

OK, do you gii 200bb w/ bottom set?

it's live PLO, people gii with even worse

Your play is fine. His play is questionable. If I know he's the type of player that will stack off this deep with bottom set then I'll lean toward a call.

Flop size is way too big

Never. I thought you were suggestion 4b/fold was an option.

Some random thoughts:

You 3-bet the flop because [A] you might win right now [B] you don't think you'll get paid when you make your flush.

If he's the kind of player that will stack off with bottom set, then I think he's the kind of player that will reluctantly pay you off on the turn when you make your obvious flush.

I don't think there are a lot of players that will 2-bet then fold the flop; especially here where you might have 3-bet the flop with a pair of Qs.

Your hand is an excellent one to play against a "creative" hand. You don't have his "creative" straight draws covered, but you do his "creative" pair and flush draws.

Isn't there also [C] villain will stack off with some worse hands like combo draws? We are often ahead of 2pr hands as well, even those that he thinks "have" to continue like 2pr and a flushdraw.

I'm unclear how we get value from combo draws in particular if we flat flop OOP. Letting him check back turn and river a straight for free is a disaster.

I'm also unsure how we avoid being bet off our equity if a straight-ish card comes and he jams 2pr and we incorrectly give him credit for a straight.

So as played it seems to me fold or jam on flop.

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I agree with poster who said flop size was too big. When deep I want people to make easy calls with poor equity (particularly worse flushdraws), while simultaneously not giving them a juicy target to slam when they have the goods and I'm the one trying to suck out.

We can also find a lot of spots to value bet rivers with as weak as 2pr if we haven't slammed the pot so hard that we are forcing him to fold weak hands and raise strong.

If we were up against a shorter stack I like the bet to get him to commit now with worse draws, but the shorter stack in this hand appears to have already given up on the flop.

I don't think folding the flop really is an option, but jamming could be better than calling if we have enough equity against range but not good visibility.

Villain's raise says you are only winning with flush. Q is a boat blocker... Do you gii with a bare nfd 200+bb deep?

seems like a gii situation... if your calling just thinking about turn plans is painfully bad... plus fold equity. OOP i tend to take more aggressive lines though with my whole range then IP